Enstrom F28 VS R22/S300 Cbi

Enstrom F28 VS R22/S300 Cbi Postby rotorhub on Mon Jun 11, 2007 1021
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G'day guys, this is my first post on bladeslapper! :D

I've wanted to get into rotary training for a long while now, I've completed 2 TIFs, both on the CBi with chopperline in Caloundra and the other with PHS Melbourne. I now live in Sydney and am earning a salary that would enable me to get serious with training. I saw Dynamic helicopters have an Enstrom F28 on their fleet at $330/hr! I was wondering what the F28's are like to fly and their suitability for training.... I would presume time in the CBi, 22 and B47 throughout the CPL(H) would be a huge benefit for employment but at $330/hr I could start a lot earlier than I plan to!

Cheers
Rotorhub

Postby FerrariFlyer on Mon Jun 11, 2007 1105
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I would be inclined to ask more than a couple employers who tend to give fresh CPL's a start and see what they would think if you dropped a CV in front of them with all your training done in an F28, with a R22 and/or R44 endorsement completed.

Consider that between the R22 and R44 they account for more than half of the helicopters on the civil register so you're more than likely going to fly a Robbie in your first job then any other machine. Admittedly, the 300's are a little more common, albeit more of a training aircraft and some musterers use them. As far as I am aware, the F28 has not been used before in Australia for training...and if it has been, it would not have been very widely used. I don't know anything about the aircraft so can't compare it to a R22 or a 300.

At the end of the day however, the big thing which will get you a job is a CPL in your hands with an endorsement or maybe two for the aircraft most operators use ie R22/R44 and maybe Jetranger, though not many people will allow you to fly one straight off your CPL. Get your training started sooner rather than later and just get it done and get ready for the hard yards once you finish and go looking for work.

Good luck!

Postby rotorhub on Mon Jun 11, 2007 1201
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Thanks for the reply. I have always read to train in order to be employable. And when I saw an Enstrom for training I didn't even know what the things were. My aim would be to get experience on a variety of types as previously stated so I had experience on a broader range. Prob is being 6ft 7" the R22 isn't favourable as the cyclic hits my legs (embarrising!) hence why the 300Cbi or F28 (both centred cyclics) suit me. Here's hoping the R44 will work for me :wink:

Postby rotors88 on Mon Jun 11, 2007 1250
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In another 500 hours what you trained in really wont matter.

The standard you trained too, & what standard you maintain will be the 2 things that really will matter!

Also ask your new flying school how many real touch down autos you will do (unassisted) before going solo & whether you do all your emergencies to the ground without the instructor behind you tidying up on the controls? Sadly the vast majority don't.

The Robinson helicopter is also the machine to kill more pilots than any other machine on the planet, some blades delaminate even in the box prior to installation, sad & very scary. Many young (time wise) pilots blindly worship them as if they were the best thing since a trusty ole' Jetbox, sadly though the wrecks of machines & wrecked families lives paint a different story. Ask on honest L.A.M.E. who has worked on a variety of machines for a few years for their appraisal of a Robinson.

Enstrom Postby Freewheel on Wed Jun 13, 2007 1334
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Rotorhub, It's a while since I saw that school, there was no Enstrom in sight when my career stopped by, but things have obviously changed with the new owners.

As Rotors88 correctly pointed out, it's not going to matter in 500 hours, but it will matter for the first job. I needed 25 hours on type before I could get an R44 job, but it's not always like that.

You don't have to do all your training in one type. As long as you do 20 hours minimum per type, you can use 2 types.

Given your height, if you're an average weight you'll also run the risk of putting the R22's C of G out depending on your instructor, so the Enstrom is going to suit you better. There's also enough room to spread your knees to allow cyclic travel without giving your instructor the wrong idea.

The Enstrom has a number of features that are similar to larger machines, and together with the 47 is the only thing I'd be happy doing touch down autos in. Auto performance is awesome, much more flexible than the R44.

The tail rotor on the A model was adequate, the F is much better, in fact the F is an enormous improvement is almost every respect, but you won't have a choice for now. Neither is as good as the R44, but virtually nothing is.

Ferrariflyer correctly points out that you'll be flying an R44 in your first job unless you're in a minority, so I'd suggest you budget for 70-80 hours in the F28 and finish off the rest in the R44. Dynamic had a near new R44 when I was there, but if not, you can always move on when it's time.

Another thing to remember - blades don't fall off Enstroms.

Good luck, this is the easy bit!

Postby rotorhub on Wed Jun 13, 2007 1712
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Thanks for the help guys. I'm around 90kg so I guess just below average for weight (aka broom stick). I've decided to do a TIF and both Dynamic (F28F) and Bankstown helis (CBi) to see which one I feel more comfortable with and which one pushes me out the door the quickest.... :)

Postby wheatbix on Wed Jun 13, 2007 1728
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rotorhub wrote:Thanks for the help guys. I'm around 90kg so I guess just below average for weight (aka broom stick). I've decided to do a TIF and both Dynamic (F28F) and Bankstown helis (CBi) to see which one I feel more comfortable with and which one pushes me out the door the quickest.... :)


Just a heads up, bankstown helis only use the 22 for training. Not really sure why the 300 is listed on their website :?

Postby havick on Wed Jun 13, 2007 1956
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I recall only a few years ago that a certain school at Moorabbin that had only R22's was bagging out Hughes 300's on their website for training. However, shock horror as soon as a 300CBi turns up on their doorstep, all the negativity on their website dissapears.

I guess what I am getting at, do your training in a machine that feels most comfortable for you (sort of like buying your first flight helmet with your own hard earned $$$). Keep in mind a machine that has a manual throttle, it's just another ace up your sleeve for emergencies down the track in aircraft that have a correlator, as it will not phase you at all.

Postby R22 Captain on Fri Jun 15, 2007 1258
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Havick,

I think that you will find that this particular flying school was 'bagging' the old 300C's due to there unrealiability and amount of down time for maintenance. The new CBi is leaps and bounds ahead of its predecessor.

R22 capt :)

Postby vortexstate on Tue Jul 03, 2007 2056
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The Enstrom is quite a robust machine in all its forms and can handle a lot of knocks from a student, but one has to ask as to where the operator in question gets their maintaince done. In days gone by, not that long ago, when the owner was a private pilot he used to tinker with the thing himself as no organisation in the New South Wales would maintain it. The closest operation to play with it was in QLD. :!: :!:

Personally, if I lived down there I would visit each school and delve a little deeper then price. End result is a lot more important for a budding new commercial pilot then saving a few hundred dollars.

IMHO (and I've earned to right to have one)........Instructor time in the game, or supervised instructors if they are lower time, is more important by far as your future employer WILL know what school produces what product. :)

Good luck in your endeavours,

VS 8)

I'll bite? Postby Coriolis on Tue Oct 23, 2007 1434
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If the Enstrom is such a great helicopter and so inexpensive to run, then why doesn't every school in Australia have at least 1 on their line - it would make sound economic sense wouldn't it? The fact that only 1 school in OZ choses to operate these machines says volumes! We are either all idiots with no business accumen at all or they are misguided and misinformed. Seeing the numbers run presently at about 27:1, I know which idea I would be running with!

Postby havick on Tue Oct 23, 2007 1510
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Coriolis, you are better off having lots of one type on your line, than a bunch of different types. Even if all bar one are the same, that one extra different type will cost you a lot more as you have to carry a lot more spares etc to keep them running.

Postby Tom on Wed Oct 24, 2007 2040
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rotors88 wrote:In another 500 hours what you trained in really wont matter.

The Robinson helicopter is also the machine to kill more pilots than any other machine on the planet, some blades delaminate even in the box prior to installation, sad & very scary. Many young (time wise) pilots blindly worship them as if they were the best thing since a trusty ole' Jetbox, sadly though the wrecks of machines & wrecked families lives paint a different story. Ask on honest L.A.M.E. who has worked on a variety of machines for a few years for their appraisal of a Robinson.


Really? S**t! What's the story with that then???? There must be more to the story if they are so popular?

Also, I'm 6ft 3in and about 85kilo.... any thoughts with where this fits in with the average (if there is one) and any limitations with certain aircraft

R22 Vs F28 Postby Coriolis on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1132
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Havick, this comment you made makes NO sense:

"Keep in mind a machine that has a manual throttle, it's just another ace up your sleeve for emergencies down the track in aircraft that have a correlator, as it will not phase you at all." Name for me a machine that doesn't have a correlator? and what has the correlator got to do with flying either an Enstrom or R22? The R22 has an exceptionally fine correlator and in the event of a governor failure, then the flyability of the machine is not compromised at all. Don't think for one moment that there is actually any real advantage to flying around in a machine that doesn't have a govenor and that somehow you are going to become a better pilot cause it just aint true! On an aside, once you've finished your training, if you stay in light choppers, best guess is that you will probably be flying an R22 or R44 and if you move up the food chain a bit, you'll be in probably a B206 or maybe even an AS350....oooops; that's right; they ALL have govenors and your point is???

Postby havick on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1326
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Coriolis,

Hughes 300 is manual throttle, as is B47 (both are very good training aircraft, as are the R22 and numerous others)

Your first job will probably be in a R44, so what happens when the correlator goes mental or to poo.? I know, it's not very hard at all to switch it off and fly it manually (even if you haven't done it before), but I have seen numerous overspeeds resulting in engine damage before as a result.

Granted, once you're in a jetbox or squirell etc it doesn't really matter all that much..

Correlator or GOVERNOR Postby Coriolis on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1341
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Havick, you've got me buggered again?
This comment:
"Your first job will probably be in a R44, so what happens when the correlator goes mental or to poo.? I know, it's not very hard at all to switch it off and fly it manually (even if you haven't done it before), but I have seen numerous overspeeds resulting in engine damage before as a result. " just doesn't make sense....if the CORRELATOR FAILS, then you don't have a throttle linked with the collective AND DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU LEARNED TO FLY ON/IN! I think you mean what if the GOVERNOR failed and I revert back to my previous comments.
Are you somehow suggesting that the ENSTROM doesn't have a correlator? The H300 and the B47 BOTH have correlators AND YOU CANNOT SWITCH A CORRELATOR OFF IN ANY OF THESE MACHINES so your post just doesn't make any sense at all!
Last edited by Coriolis on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1344, edited 1 time in total.

Postby havick on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1343
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sorry I meant the governor.

Postby PhilJ on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1344
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seems to me you are confusing a governer and a correlator.

EDIT.........beaten to it!

Correlators Vs GOVERNOR Postby Coriolis on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1352
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Now we get to the core of the post - finally!

Havick, most people adapt to a manual throttle aircraft, such as the H300 or B47 fine by the time they complete the endorsement so it is not normally a problem at all. If the training in the R22 is done correctly, and I think it generally is, then most will be confronted with several hours of GOVERNOR 'OFF' flying however, the correlator in the R22 is mostly so good, that there is very little throttle work required to bring the aircraft back safely in the event of a governor failure. People who run around saying that you are no good as a pilot until you have experience flying a machine without a governor are usually people who don't have those machines available on line! THEY ARE FULL OF CR*P! There are a whole heap of bloody sound reasons why people are flying around in and equipping schools with, R22's just as there are a whole heap of bloody good reasons why nobody can be bothered with operating ENSTROMS. It really comes down to MARKET DEMANDS and the MARKET DEMANDS R22's - end of story!

Postby havick on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1355
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coriolis,

I am not saying that if you haven't trained in a manual throttle aircraft that you are no good as a pilot.. The military has seen fit to train ab-initio in squirells..

All I was suggesting was that if you have trained in them from day one, then they aren't an issue at all (it was just a food for thought kinda thing). I am not a robbie basher, they are a sound training aircraft.

Plus there still are some medium turbines areound that still use manual throttle (B204)


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