Who is the PIC?

[tailrotor]

Hey guys quick airlaw-ish question relating to how a PIC is determined when the circumstance is NOT a training operation but there are two pilots and duel controls. Does the term PIC simply fall on the pilot actually flying or does the seniority of the "co-pilot" factor in? does this change if the other pilot is an instructor? Does it change if there are paying passangers in the back or if the flight is a private flight?

[wheatbix]

The short story is that someone has to be nominated as PIC. There are a multitude of obligations that come along with the title, and it must be filled accordingly.

However that doesn't mean that the person with the most experience has to be chosen. As long as the PIC meets the minimum requirements for the flight (currency, endorsement, appropriate ratings, licence and required time on type) then that is all that matters, joe blogs with 20000 hours can be in the other seat. An instructor rating would only change this if some sort of training was being conducted. The answer is the same whether it is a private or charter flight. There must be a decisive choice made before the flight commences as to who is PIC, irrespective of who actually has their hand on the stick (or is manipulating the autopilot).

Generally however the PIC will sit in the "command seat" of an aircraft. In multi crew aircraft there can be subtle differences in switchology and instrumentation depending on which side you're sitting. With the exception of lifting work, AFAIK most captains will be in the right hand seat.

[Crusty]

In real life ! on the job, doing survey for instance, be careful, as you may think you are PIC ! But the geotec will try to overide you all the way.......hopefully your boss will stand by your decisions, "mine did not"! As he made more money from the customer than me so I was flicked "many moons ago" NOT sorry at all though. In hindsight it ended up ugly for them!

[hand in pants]

The biggest responsibility of being the PIC is simply that the PIC is the one who ends up in court when things turn untidy.

[cassidy_copter]

Tailrotor,

Your scenario is a little vague.

Dual Controls . . . and one pilot more experienced than another is meant to complement a flight crew situation, not degrade safety.

The more experienced pilot, though not PIC, should never usurp the authority of the actual PIC nor sit there second-guessing every switch the PIC throws or in what sequence.

On long-haul aircraft, depending on length of the flight, there could be two complete flight crew, that is two Captains and two First Officers, but only one Captain will be designated by the airline to be Pilot-in-Command, for the flight and his name will actually appear on the computerised flight plan. The Relief Captain will most likely not make the Takeoff nor Landing, but will occupy the Captain's seat and sometimes the First Officer's seat, during some portion of cruise flight . . . 4 to 6 hours, for example. Both Captains will be paid as Captain. The PIC maybe in the bunk or First Class Cabin asleep, while the Relief Captain is at the controls (well actually on Autopilot).

The military would do it the same way.

GA . . . Charter Operation, for example: The Chief Pilot should designate the PIC for the flight. The PIC must be designated on and sign the Flight Plan. I have been in a position where I flew one leg as PIC and the other pilot flew the return leg, or vice versa, but it was all agreed upon and arranged with the Chief Pilot and the other pilot, before takeoff.

GA - - - Aircraft Rental scenario: The pilots should arrive at an agreement, before takeoff. Flip a coin. Rock-Scissors-Paper, or whatever. The PIC must sign the for the flight, as above.

ATPL giving instruction on an aircraft for which he is Endorsed/Type rated can log PIC. The secret there is the other pilot must know he is receiving instruction.

An Instructor, specifically giving flight instruction can log PIC.

Logging PIC versus who is actually or designated PIC has some nuances in the Regulations you should be familiar with.

Also, you wrote "duel controls". There should never be a Duel for the controls, only a "Positive Transfer of Controls" Pilot Flying: "I have the Controls". Pilot Monitoring or Pilot Not Flying: "You have the Controls." I am sure you meant to write Dual Controls.

Which brings up another point. Second-in-Command, First Officer, or Co-pilot maybe the Flying Pilot (hands-on) during a flight, making the Takeoff and Landing, but he would not log PIC time, even if he also has an ATPL and more experience than the Captain, who is PIC, in fact.

Everyone is hungry for PIC time. It'll come. Then someday you will realise more than 10,000 hours PIC is still not enough. We are always struggling for that next .1 doing more of what we have been doing or doing something we have never done before or have very little experience doing. It is a never ending learning curve.

At least "To thine own self be true" –Polonius in William Shakespeare's Hamlet

Happy and Safe Flying.

[tailrotor]

Sorry to be confusing, basically what actually happened was I wanted to take my family out for a flight in an r44 but I didnt have the hours required to private hire the machine from an insurance perspective so the company said I would have to have a saftey pilot with me (I only have 6 hours Duel in the 44 and I desperatly need my 3 PIC hours as I am trying very hard to get a job ). An instructor flew with me in the left hand seat with duel control fitted but never actually touched the controls for the entire flight. Basically I wanted to know for this (and just in general) how this would be defined and if I would still be able to log these hours as PIC? Is this something I need to talk to him about?

[hawk1]

G'day tailrotor,Would this be logged at ICUS in your log book?? Maybe the other guys would have more knowledge of this,I know wheaties is pretty good..taught me to fly

[wheatbix]

It is something you need to discuss with the instructor, as only one person can log PIC at a time. Failing that, ICUS is better then dual (from an insurance point of view). If you are not under instruction (or completing a BFR/check ride), then you shouldn't be logging dual. Just because the person sitting besides you has an instructor rating doesn't mean they're automatically PIC.

Hopefully your safety pilot isn't too "hour hungry" and lets you log it as in command. It's certainly what I'd be doing, especially seeing as you're appropriately qualified for the flight and paying $xxx per hour. If there's an issue maybe bring it up with the CFI/CP. (low time) instructors acting as safety pilots unnecessarily making a competent, sound and qualified pilot log dual time so that they (the instructor) can get their hours up is certainly a pet peeve of mine.

Some good points by Cassidy and HIP.

[havick]

Agree with wheatbix, and share his pet peeve. Log the PIC time or find another company to hire the aircraft from.

Good luck.

[Freewheeling]

You log it. Your rated and endorsed. You hired and paid the money. Your hours.

[harold]

Post above are correct; you log PIC but make sure the other chap logs nothing (including co-pilot time)!

[Imout]

Both pilots log the time.
The instructor I am guessing is also wanting the hours and he should log it because he did it. You can't tell him not to log it. He was there fulfilling his roll. Whether he touched the controls or not is irrelavant.

The instructor logs it as PIC (he has to as this was obviously a Company insurance requirement)
You log it as ICUS - in command under supervision (because you are exercising the comand duties under supervision)

ICUS counts as PIC time for you as far as your insurance requirements go so everybody wins and is legal in this situation.
Remember ICUS is there so that an inexperienced pilot in a particular type can gain in command experience with the added safety of a senior pilot being available if required.

Regarding the designation of the PIC. This referes to who is the ultimate decision maker in the aircraft. The Company or the crew will decide thjis and designate the PIC regardless of who may be the flying pilot or the non flying pilot.
My understanding is that in some operations in a military environment the Captain of the aircraft may not even be a pilot because he is making the decisions on what the pilot flying the aircraft should be doing. (Happy to be corrected on this one as not my area of expertise but you get the picture)

[harold]

First poster only asked IF the other guy was an instructor, for anyone other than an instructor (giving instruction) they can log nothing!
As for the military suggestion that someone other than a pilot might assume the role of PIC, that's plainly wrong! Whilst an Observer per se may direct a flight, they assume no command role regarding the safe operation of the aircraft!

[FatBoy1971]

In the Australian Military only a pilot can be the Aircraft Captain. In the Navy, the Observer (or AVWO) may be the Mission Commander, but never the Aircraft Captain. The pilot may be both Mission Commander and Aircraft Captain depending on the role of the aircraft that day.

In the Royal Navy however, the Observer may be the Aircraft Captain, even though they have no controls in front of them.

Back to topic though, I agree with what Mike says re: who logs what in this case.

[havick]

Tailrotor...

Where are you based and where do you want to do your flight from?

Perhaps another slapper on here can point you in the direction of where else you can hire an r44 from with the where you can log PIC.

*edit - mike I disagree with you slightly re: icus. Without having the regs in front of me, icus can only be logged in a commercial operation where it's detailed in the ops manual and the supervising pilot is approved by the chief pilot (whether they're nominated as an appendix to the ops manual or via a Casa instrument as a car217 c/t). I don't think someone can log icus under pvt ops. Ill double check the regs when I can and confirm or retract what I have just said.

[Imout]

I do not think you have to be an instructor but the PIC does have to be endorsed on the helicopter as does the pilot recieving ICUS.
It is not a dual flight nor is it an instructing flight. Both pilots are appropriatly endorsed in the aircraft to fly PIC but because of a Company (such as a route check), insurance or other limitation the other pilot is being supervised in order to practice their in command abilities in the aircraft.

Private pilots are not able to log ICUS, this is not an option for them it is only available to CPL or higher pilots.

[havick]

Mike agree with what you are saying there. But my interpretation is that ICUS can only be logged when operating under a companies' AOC. Yes both pilots must be command endorsed on type and the supervising pilot must be approved under whatever mechanisms are in place in the ops manual (ie chief pilot approval etc etc).

Either way, the guy who started the thread is trying to get his 3 hours PIC so he can then go and fly charter. Only one person can log PIC (as opposed to pilots flying in the USA where copilots log PIC if they are flying - another reason to tread with caution when hiring yanks that just meet the 500 m/e PIC time). If he posts on here where he is located then I'm sure someone will be able to point him in the right direction so he doesn't waste his coin, gets his 3 hrs PIC and can get to work.

[tailrotor]

Thanks guys, I am currently in Tasmania but I was over in Melbourne to see family and wanted to take a machine out on short notice which is where all this started. I did post a message here about private hire but couldnt find anywhere near enough to Melbourne that would simply let me take a machine with my hours so I came to this compramise with one of the companies over there to fly with one of their pilots (Many thanks to them as they did go out of their way to help me.) Several people have contacted me with places where I can get my PIC time "catch free" but none in Melbourne which is where my family was. Seeing as the situation is a bit delicate I suppose that I will have to call the instructor personally and see what he has to say, I cant immagine he would grudge me the hours as he was a very nice guy I was simply curious as to the actual legalality of my position.

[muppet]

Listen to Cassidy, Havick and whoever told you to take the PIC and tell the 'instructor' (who wasn't instructing if we are honest) that they are your hours. He should be decent enough to want to help. ICUS is for AOC ops as stated and needs a written confirmation in company exposition so not relevant here sorry Mike... IMHO

If you and the 'Instructor' disagree, maybe they will be 'duel' hours after all.... Giggle. Nice spotting Cassidy.

[muppet]

Harold it was, sorry Harold & Freewheeling. On my phone... Listen to them...