Blackhawks for Australia

What have you heard?
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Hello Pilots
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:13

Probably two engineers per airframe......
So, if it was two pilot operated, initially, conservatively speaking 20 pilots and 20 engineers wowzah. Full production 40-50 pilots and 40 engineers. Thats a MASSIVE operation.
Not sure how competitive a bid you can put in to run a operation like that. Then theres hangarage......Sh!t we've only just started......Ground crew and fuel trucks
I guess not all have to be in Oz
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:16

mdav wrote:Fair point there. If they do fly two up I hope they will train up guys that are not ex military. Why should they have all the fun.


Old boys club mate, one just needs to look at minimums for EMS/Search and Rescue/Police to see who the jobs are tailored for.
Leave the military and you have ALL the ticks in boxes.....Simple
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:17

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Last edited by Hello Pilots on Sat Jul 29 2017, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby mdav » Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:19

It's becoming a ex military world now. Damn shame, wish I could go back in time.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby kandm » Sat Jul 29 2017, 06:27

The minimum requirements are written that way because those are the skill sets that are required. It's as simple as that. They have and always will be the largest contributor to EMS/Offshore operations because Multi-Engine/Crew/NVG/Low Level/Winching etc is what they do from day one.

While there are exceptions, your average mil pilot will still also be well short of most EMS/Offshore minimums when his or her ROSO is up..Ring around some offshore/EMS bases and you will find a healthy mix of backgrounds.
Last edited by kandm on Sat Jul 29 2017, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Eric Hunt » Sat Jul 29 2017, 07:23

Look at it from the Operator's point of view - why spend money training a newby on a complex aircraft, when there are plenty out there already trained to a higher standard than you need?

Getting the operation running is a time-sensitive thing, so the logical process is to use Blakork pilots and minimise the lead-in time.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby pohm1 » Sat Jul 29 2017, 07:28

What's quicker, training an experienced fire pilot to fly a new type, or training an ex-mil blackhawk pilot to fly fires?

P1
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Eric Hunt » Sat Jul 29 2017, 08:36

...and why do you think they haven't already been on fire work?
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Dauphin » Sat Jul 29 2017, 09:09

There seems to be an assumption on here that all the former ADF Black Hawk pilots will be lining up for this gig. Why would they? Just because you are qualified on a particular aircraft type in the military doesn't necessarily mean you want to fly it in the civvy world. I'd be surprised if any former Black Hawk drivers chase after fire jobs once they leave the military. There are better opportunities out there for their qualifications (EMS, offshore), aside from the fact that most military pilots have no experience of fire ops or long lining.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Twistgrip » Sat Jul 29 2017, 09:28

"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened"
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Gonsky » Sat Jul 29 2017, 21:00

It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.

Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?

Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?

Regards,
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby The Ozzie Boy » Sat Jul 29 2017, 22:17

Gonsky wrote:It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.

Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?

Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?

Regards,


Do I detect another "FREDOO" and some empty containers ??????
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Cleared Hot » Sat Jul 29 2017, 23:29

Gonsky wrote:It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.

Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?

Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?

Regards,


I wouldn't be buying shares.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Capt Slong » Sun Jul 30 2017, 10:13

Restricted category,

- No crew transport, winch or rappel ops (unless fire fighters are professional crew) That's out.

No tank,
No Longline Door,

So belly hook a bambi bucket only.

So - no urban interface,
- no heavily timbered or obstructed dip sites,
- no salt water dip sites
- no longline cargo extraction or insertion
- no direct splash mat support on stumps so effectively done by NPWS and RFS ground crews when blacking out.

SO REALLY,

They will look pretty cool, go very fast and cost lots of money.

Ha I'm sold, NAFC should just award contract on that basis.

I'm not knocking the type or the fact that it's a very capable platform but a the moment if all it can do is strap on a bucket and throw a bit of water around out in a field near a big dam while looking in their mirrors and hoping they hit something I think my tax $$ maybe better spent elsewhere.

Kit them up and crew them right and the concept carries weight, but thinking your just going to turn up and she'll be right I think may expose a couple of minor oversights.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Yankee » Sun Jul 30 2017, 11:23

Capt Slong is spot on...

There aren't a lot of Hawks on fires in the US. That should tell you something. Unless they get some kind of exemptions in Australia this may be just a lot of down draft. I too am wondering where the pot of gold for all this is coming from.

I do hope that some how this venture is successful, who knows, maybe someone is forward thinking knowing there's a chance that the "big Orange" may disappear.

Exciting times.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby joni » Sun Jul 30 2017, 12:11

Capt Slong may be onto something with the she'll be right attitude.

In that Aviation Australia article the StarFlight CEO is quoted saying “A tank is a tank, and we could probably get an existing tank retrofitted to make it fit,” Skeen told Australian Aviation.

This seems like something they should be certain on, and have a plan in place, for the CEO to say "we could probably" seems a bit odd.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby havick » Sun Jul 30 2017, 12:21

joni wrote:Capt Slong may be onto something with the she'll be right attitude.

In that Aviation Australia article the StarFlight CEO is quoted saying “A tank is a tank, and we could probably get an existing tank retrofitted to make it fit,” Skeen told Australian Aviation.

This seems like something they should be certain on, and have a plan in place, for the CEO to say "we could probably" seems a bit odd.


I wish them all the best, but I think whoever is running this show will find there a lot more hurdles to jump than they think.

And a tank isn't just a tank. It's just like a Bambi bucket is very different to a monsoon bucket, fast bucket etc. the conair tank has considerable power to punch through heavy canopy whereas the simplex tank (same capacity) just showers the water out and isn't as effective in tall timber/heavy canopy as just one example.

As mentioned earlier it's nice to see new equipment in the country, but I don't think it's going to be the cakewalk that most people on here think.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Crusty » Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:47

What a logistical nightmare this would be, $170 mil a drop in the bucket !
10 Black hawcks = 20 pilots (without reserves)..
20 engineers plus various ground crews, maybe dedicated fuel trucks as i think they are pressure filled ( not sure) Not to mention office staff and inhouse computer systems and software!
They are a lot braver than I. VERY BALLSY !
All for a 3 to 4 mth window for fire season and maybe a 8 week flood season, when the weather gods say go! What a mountain to climb!
There is not that much lift work in this country to keep busy the rest of the year even for just 4 machines, as we don't have too many major bush fires that need the big guns attend out of our season fire ! I can't imagine what the hourly rate would be on these beasts! No change out of $8 to $10 k per hour as a guestimate surely! Maybe someone can enlighten us on a general hourly rate for them?
Lets just see how that will affect our househod insurance levies, and we will all pay that if you pay council rates, as that writting has already been put on the wall!
Dont get me wrong they area beautiful machine BUT we only have 24 million people in this country and about 6 million taxpayers! NOT 300 million people like the USA!
The money has to come from somewhere to pay the hourly rates to get the return on the private or government funded $170 mil!
I would rather pay for a 214 at 2800 litres per load water with a single pilot and single engineer! Got to be way cheaper to run overall I think !
I am quite sure there will be plenty of other opinions 180 deg opposite to mine!
And yes I am invested in this part of the helicopter industry!
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firehawkforeffect » Tue Aug 1 2017, 01:29

Crusty wrote:What a logistical nightmare this would be, $170 mil a drop in the bucket !
10 Black hawcks = 20 pilots (without reserves)..
20 engineers plus various ground crews, maybe dedicated fuel trucks as i think they are pressure filled ( not sure) Not to mention office staff and inhouse computer systems and software!
They are a lot braver than I. VERY BALLSY !
All for a 3 to 4 mth window for fire season and maybe a 8 week flood season, when the weather gods say go! What a mountain to climb!
There is not that much lift work in this country to keep busy the rest of the year even for just 4 machines, as we don't have too many major bush fires that need the big guns attend out of our season fire ! I can't imagine what the hourly rate would be on these beasts! No change out of $8 to $10 k per hour as a guestimate surely! Maybe someone can enlighten us on a general hourly rate for them?
Lets just see how that will affect our househod insurance levies, and we will all pay that if you pay council rates, as that writting has already been put on the wall!
Dont get me wrong they area beautiful machine BUT we only have 24 million people in this country and about 6 million taxpayers! NOT 300 million people like the USA!
The money has to come from somewhere to pay the hourly rates to get the return on the private or government funded $170 mil!
I would rather pay for a 214 at 2800 litres per load water with a single pilot and single engineer! Got to be way cheaper to run overall I think !
I am quite sure there will be plenty of other opinions 180 deg opposite to mine!
And yes I am invested in this part of the helicopter industry!


It's anywhere between $1285- $2600 US an hr to run, depending on which report you read. 4.4 maintenance hrs to flying hours
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Gonsky » Tue Aug 1 2017, 01:44

Depending on which report you read ???

Seriously, one would think those involved would be doing a little more than reading reports. There is no way those numbers are correct.

Regards,
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