Blackhawks for Australia

What have you heard?
Firehawkforeffect
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firehawkforeffect » Tue Aug 1 2017, 01:47

Gonsky wrote:Depending on which report you read ???

Seriously, one would think those involved would be doing a little more than reading reports. There is no way those numbers are correct.

Regards,


Well 1 is a report from Sikorsky and 1 is a report by DOD. You would think DOD would be skewed to the higher end as they have a wider range of ageing aircraft.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Gonsky » Tue Aug 1 2017, 02:21

Writtern in the 80's :D

You started this thread yet you still have not answered the simple question I have posed numerous times...............

Where is the money coming from?

Regards,
'Mankind has a perfect record in aviation - we have never left one up there!'
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Duckisback » Tue Aug 1 2017, 03:29

Gonsky wrote:Writtern in the 80's :D

You started this thread yet you still have not answered the simple question I have posed numerous times...............

Where is the money coming from?

Regards,

From http://news.lockheedmartin.com/2017-07- ... -agreement

Kaan Air Australia Chairman, Mr. Ferda Yildiz, said it was an important and significant deal for his company.

"We are very happy to be able to take part and contribute to the helicopter firefighting and disaster relief effort within Australia and further strengthen our ties with a very distinguished OEM, Sikorsky/Lockheed Martin," Yildiz said. "We aim to expand this cooperation beyond Australia in other parts of the world in similar projects using the expertise of our Australian company."

Its all over the net and I don't think the likes of LockHeed Martin and Sikorsky would be involved if Kaan Air was not good with the dollars.

But who cares, this could have been set up in the USA or Europe. Glad its all being done in AUS so we have a crack at the jobs. :D
Firehawkforeffect
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firehawkforeffect » Tue Aug 1 2017, 03:38

Gonsky wrote:Writtern in the 80's :D

You started this thread yet you still have not answered the simple question I have posed numerous times...............

Where is the money coming from?

Regards,


Generally when a business requires money they go to the bank and borrow against the quality assets they are buying.

Regards,
arrrj
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby arrrj » Tue Aug 1 2017, 04:44

Aviation Trader today...

http://www.aviationtrader.com.au/news/a ... lackhawks/

"A consortium of defence companies have signed an agreement worth up to $63 million to bring 10 Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters into Australia, with options for an additional 10 aircraft.

In Brisbane today, Kaan Air Australia, Sikorsky and StarFlight Australia signed an agreement that will see the purchase of the 10 ex-US military Black Hawks, to arrive early next year.

A world-first refurbishment program will be undertaken in Brisbane. The Black Hawks will be brought up to ‘as new’ condition and re-purposed specifically for aerial firebombing operations during future bushfire seasons around Australia and New Zealand, and for year-round emergency services and disaster relief work.

The aircraft will be refurbished and maintained in Brisbane by Sikorsky. This initiative sees Kaan Air Australia and StarFlight Australia partner to usher in a new era in Australian emergency services and disaster relief aviation.

Sikorsky hand-picked the initial 10 Black Hawk helicopters for their suitability in aerial firebombing and external heavy load lifting ability, and will be made available to assist emergency services and fire agencies in bushfires and natural disasters across the country.

StarFlight Australia will be the operator of the aircraft. The Black Hawks will undergo three months of extensive refurbishment, including new high performance engines, upgraded gear boxes, installation of a helicopter terrain awareness and warning system (HTAWS) and a general overhaul, which Sikorsky will carry out at its Pinkenba facility in Brisbane.

John Skeen, chief executive officer of Kaan Air Australia and StarFlight Australia, welcomed the new agreement and said the deal would assist emergency services in filling a significant gap within Australia’s firefighting and disaster relief resources. “The helicopters are being purchased by an Australian company, will be registered in Australia and, most importantly, will be fully maintained and supported in Australia by the helicopter OEM Sikorsky and its supply chain commitment, helping to boost local jobs in the area and guaranteeing ongoing supply chain support of our Black Hawk fleet”.

General Manager of Sikorsky Australia Andrew Rushbrook said that as the original manufacturer of the Black Hawk helicopter, there is no company better positioned to refurbish and maintain the aircraft and no better place to do so than at Sikorsky Australia headquarters in Brisbane.

Kaan Air is one of Europe’s leading helicopter utility operators and a renowned helicopter distributor for AgustaWestland and Russian helicopters, and has significant operational experience in helicopter firefighting, off-shore and air medical service businesses. In 2015, Kaan Air Australia established a joint venture under the StarFlight name with LifeFlight Australia.

The Black Hawk helicopter has served with the US military and the armed forces of 26 other countries worldwide as a tough, reliable utility helicopter for the last 35 years.

It has been used in combat zones to deliver and extract troops, save lives as a medevac or casualty evacuation platform, provide critical supplies to troops, deliver emergency supplies during natural disasters and perform as an aerial firefighter and border patroller."
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Hello Pilots
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Tue Aug 1 2017, 04:46

John Skeen, chief executive officer of Kaan Air Australia and StarFlight Australia, welcomed the new agreement and said the deal would assist emergency services in filling a significant gap within Australia's firefighting and disaster relief resources.

Where is said gap?
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Crusty » Tue Aug 1 2017, 05:46

Nah Mate those numbers are from Fairy land. Who are you trying to kid! Those numbers you quote are Jetbox up to Squirrel rates NOT a HUGE twin engine gas guzzler. The pilots would have to be on a couple of grand a day and there is 2 of them at a time!
And you don't seriously think Jonny come lately from civy land is actually going to get to put his finger prints on the controls! Tell them they are dreaming LUV!
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Duckisback » Tue Aug 1 2017, 06:10

Nice :too_cool:
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Black Hawk FireFlight Pic.jpg
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Hello Pilots
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Tue Aug 1 2017, 06:24

Those per hour numbers quoted are perhaps direct operating costs. Sure as hell will bet the farm that those aren't the numbers put across the desk in a contract bid......PLUS the easy 15K+ day rate!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong but the crane is about 25K.....a day kids and thats before the blades spin.
From 2010 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-19/f ... -by/401846
There is a good archived thread from prune relating to this topic from 2005.
Sikorsky stalwart Nick Lappos was quoted as saying (in 2005) the Fire Hawk was US$1000 per hour!!!

Ace programming wont let me link it......
Insert major rumour network websites address here ____________________________/archive/index.php/t-191336.html

turkey-buying-isis-oil.gif
Heres where the funding is from...
Last edited by Hello Pilots on Tue Aug 1 2017, 06:42, edited 2 times in total.
Gonsky
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Gonsky » Tue Aug 1 2017, 06:29

OK so they are borrowing the money to buy the helis and then will repay the bank from all the business they do. RRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt.

Are you using the numbers from the DOD to get the bank loan, that will end in tears? Military aircraft p*ss away $$ like no body's business. Your looking at 10k easy if not closer to Skycrane money.

They, the DOD also quote the F-35 is a sound investement and not money wasted and they have managed to stick everyone with them.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/684207.pdf

pop; pop;

Regards,
'Mankind has a perfect record in aviation - we have never left one up there!'
Firefish
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firefish » Tue Aug 1 2017, 07:09

Let's not forget that these machines are untested in the utility world. 204/205/212/412/214 plus S61 and cranes have all been logging and fighting fires for years. I reckon the direct operating cost might just climb after these machines start doing 100+ loads a day for extended periods. I'm not bagging them I just reckon these guys might be in for a few surprises once they start getting worked in this way.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby The Ozzie Boy » Tue Aug 1 2017, 07:14

Firehawkforeffect wrote:
Gonsky wrote:Writtern in the 80's :D

You started this thread yet you still have not answered the simple question I have posed numerous times...............

Where is the money coming from?

Regards,


Generally when a business requires money they go to the bank and borrow against the quality assets they are buying.

Regards,

But if Lifeflight is involved they just sell teddy bears so look out there will be "Blackbears" for sale soon **^**
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Twistgrip » Tue Aug 1 2017, 07:26

Firefish,
With all due respect that comment is totally inaccurate. Brainard helicopters (Firehawk) have been using these things for decades with long lines and well proven in the field.

http://www.firehawkhelicopters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=234
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Seagull » Tue Aug 1 2017, 09:43

Firefish,

You reckon the military treated them any better? Huey was untested in civil industry in the 70s but yet you seem to think it is up to the task. Now we all need to wait for all the pilots of those machines from the 70s to retire too huh :P

These machine will kick arse just like they did in the military. They will also, no doubt, be more efficient under civil maintenance processes, just like the Huey experience has shown.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Hello Pilots » Tue Aug 1 2017, 10:09

Seagull wrote:Firefish,

You reckon the military treated them any better? Huey was untested in civil industry in the 70s but yet you seem to think it is up to the task. Now we all need to wait for all the pilots of those machines from the 70s to retire too huh :P

These machine will kick arse just like they did in the military. They will also, no doubt, be more efficient under civil maintenance processes, just like the Huey experience has shown.


Nonsense
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firefish » Tue Aug 1 2017, 11:01

Twistgrip wrote:Firefish,
With all due respect that comment is totally inaccurate. Brainard helicopters (Firehawk) have been using these things for decades with long lines and well proven in the field.

http://www.firehawkhelicopters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=234



So one company with 4 machines constitutes being proven as compared to the other airframes I've mentioned? Like I said before, I'm not bagging them. I just reckon that once these machines get more exposure to the utility side of things they may find their direct operating costs increase. Time will tell.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firefish » Tue Aug 1 2017, 11:08

Seagull wrote:Firefish,

You reckon the military treated them any better? Huey was untested in civil industry in the 70s but yet you seem to think it is up to the task. Now we all need to wait for all the pilots of those machines from the 70s to retire too huh :P

These machine will kick arse just like they did in the military. They will also, no doubt, be more efficient under civil maintenance processes, just like the Huey experience has shown.



They Huey has been in the civil industry for nearly 50 years as you've pointed out and as a result a lot of lessons have been learned about them. I reckon there will be lessons to be learned from operating these machines in the civil game as well. Most likely expensive ones.
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Twistgrip
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Twistgrip » Tue Aug 1 2017, 12:51

So one company with 4 machines constitutes being proven
https://www.verticalmag.com/features/fighting-fire-with-fire/

Yes I agree they will come at a hefty operating cost but 14,000 hours of utility work accident free, the article speaks for itself. :)

Anyway good luck to them, I hope they do well.
"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened"
Firefish
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Firefish » Tue Aug 1 2017, 23:15

Twistgrip wrote:
So one company with 4 machines constitutes being proven
https://www.verticalmag.com/features/fighting-fire-with-fire/

Yes I agree they will come at a hefty operating cost but 14,000 hours of utility work accident free, the article speaks for itself. :)

Anyway good luck to them, I hope they do well.



14,000 hours looks like a big number until you break it down. First one online 1996 then 2001 and two in 2004. Interpolate(love that word) and you get 14,000 hours divided by 16 years divided by 4 airframes = roughly 218 hours per year. Now I know these maths are a bit dodgy but one operator doing 220 hours a year per airframe isn't exactly high volume. The article is also a buy my product type and there is no talk of the lessons they would have undoubtably learned from operating them. I doubt they're sharing these lessons with potentially new competitors. As more of these machines start working hard we'll see a better picture of how they stack up.
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Re: Blackhawks for Australia

Postby Gas Strut » Wed Aug 2 2017, 00:34

Gonsky wrote:It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.

Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?

Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?

Regards,


Umm... Not to be rude, but if you read any of the articles or watched the news you would find the answers to all your questions about the money and who is who in the zoo... do a bit of a google search dude and you'll find all your answers!

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