Blackhawks for Australia
- Hello Pilots
- 3rd Dan
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Jul 2010
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Probably two engineers per airframe......
So, if it was two pilot operated, initially, conservatively speaking 20 pilots and 20 engineers wowzah. Full production 40-50 pilots and 40 engineers. Thats a MASSIVE operation.
Not sure how competitive a bid you can put in to run a operation like that. Then theres hangarage......Sh!t we've only just started......Ground crew and fuel trucks
I guess not all have to be in Oz
So, if it was two pilot operated, initially, conservatively speaking 20 pilots and 20 engineers wowzah. Full production 40-50 pilots and 40 engineers. Thats a MASSIVE operation.
Not sure how competitive a bid you can put in to run a operation like that. Then theres hangarage......Sh!t we've only just started......Ground crew and fuel trucks
I guess not all have to be in Oz
- Hello Pilots
- 3rd Dan
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Jul 2010
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
mdav wrote:Fair point there. If they do fly two up I hope they will train up guys that are not ex military. Why should they have all the fun.
Old boys club mate, one just needs to look at minimums for EMS/Search and Rescue/Police to see who the jobs are tailored for.
Leave the military and you have ALL the ticks in boxes.....Simple
- Hello Pilots
- 3rd Dan
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Jul 2010
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
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Last edited by Hello Pilots on Sat Jul 29 2017, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
- mdav
- 1st Dan
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Aug 2007
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
It's becoming a ex military world now. Damn shame, wish I could go back in time.
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- New Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Jul 2017
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
The minimum requirements are written that way because those are the skill sets that are required. It's as simple as that. They have and always will be the largest contributor to EMS/Offshore operations because Multi-Engine/Crew/NVG/Low Level/Winching etc is what they do from day one.
While there are exceptions, your average mil pilot will still also be well short of most EMS/Offshore minimums when his or her ROSO is up..Ring around some offshore/EMS bases and you will find a healthy mix of backgrounds.
While there are exceptions, your average mil pilot will still also be well short of most EMS/Offshore minimums when his or her ROSO is up..Ring around some offshore/EMS bases and you will find a healthy mix of backgrounds.
Last edited by kandm on Sat Jul 29 2017, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
- Eric Hunt
- 3rd Dan
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Sep 2006
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Look at it from the Operator's point of view - why spend money training a newby on a complex aircraft, when there are plenty out there already trained to a higher standard than you need?
Getting the operation running is a time-sensitive thing, so the logical process is to use Blakork pilots and minimise the lead-in time.
Getting the operation running is a time-sensitive thing, so the logical process is to use Blakork pilots and minimise the lead-in time.
- pohm1
- 3rd Dan
- Posts: 542
- Joined: Apr 2006
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
What's quicker, training an experienced fire pilot to fly a new type, or training an ex-mil blackhawk pilot to fly fires?
P1
P1
- Eric Hunt
- 3rd Dan
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- Joined: Sep 2006
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
...and why do you think they haven't already been on fire work?
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- 1st Dan
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Jan 2008
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
There seems to be an assumption on here that all the former ADF Black Hawk pilots will be lining up for this gig. Why would they? Just because you are qualified on a particular aircraft type in the military doesn't necessarily mean you want to fly it in the civvy world. I'd be surprised if any former Black Hawk drivers chase after fire jobs once they leave the military. There are better opportunities out there for their qualifications (EMS, offshore), aside from the fact that most military pilots have no experience of fire ops or long lining.
- Twistgrip
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Sep 2006
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
News link in Aus Aviation mag.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/07/ex-us-army-black-hawks-headed-down-under-for-fire-fighting-operations/
http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/07/ex-us-army-black-hawks-headed-down-under-for-fire-fighting-operations/
"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened"
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- 2nd Dan
- Posts: 330
- Joined: May 2016
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.
Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?
Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?
Regards,
Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?
Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?
Regards,
'Mankind has a perfect record in aviation - we have never left one up there!'
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- Silver Wings
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Jul 2010
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Gonsky wrote:It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.
Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?
Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?
Regards,
Do I detect another "FREDOO" and some empty containers ??????
- Cleared Hot
- Silver Wings
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Jan 2017
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Gonsky wrote:It is interesting that still no one has answered or more to to the point no one seems to care where the money is coming from. Has a company somewhere stumped up the cash or is it coming in form offshore.
Everyone is lining up to forwards CV's yet zero due diligence has been done in regards to what ever company is actually in the middle of this to be able to do what they say?
Alot of threads on this forum all have sections that go on at length whereas people lose positions due to the in abiity of the parent to cover the $$, using the cavet that they didn't see it coming?
Regards,
I wouldn't be buying shares.
Assume the Position
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- Silver Wings
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Dec 2008
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Restricted category,
- No crew transport, winch or rappel ops (unless fire fighters are professional crew) That's out.
No tank,
No Longline Door,
So belly hook a bambi bucket only.
So - no urban interface,
- no heavily timbered or obstructed dip sites,
- no salt water dip sites
- no longline cargo extraction or insertion
- no direct splash mat support on stumps so effectively done by NPWS and RFS ground crews when blacking out.
SO REALLY,
They will look pretty cool, go very fast and cost lots of money.
Ha I'm sold, NAFC should just award contract on that basis.
I'm not knocking the type or the fact that it's a very capable platform but a the moment if all it can do is strap on a bucket and throw a bit of water around out in a field near a big dam while looking in their mirrors and hoping they hit something I think my tax $$ maybe better spent elsewhere.
Kit them up and crew them right and the concept carries weight, but thinking your just going to turn up and she'll be right I think may expose a couple of minor oversights.
- No crew transport, winch or rappel ops (unless fire fighters are professional crew) That's out.
No tank,
No Longline Door,
So belly hook a bambi bucket only.
So - no urban interface,
- no heavily timbered or obstructed dip sites,
- no salt water dip sites
- no longline cargo extraction or insertion
- no direct splash mat support on stumps so effectively done by NPWS and RFS ground crews when blacking out.
SO REALLY,
They will look pretty cool, go very fast and cost lots of money.
Ha I'm sold, NAFC should just award contract on that basis.
I'm not knocking the type or the fact that it's a very capable platform but a the moment if all it can do is strap on a bucket and throw a bit of water around out in a field near a big dam while looking in their mirrors and hoping they hit something I think my tax $$ maybe better spent elsewhere.
Kit them up and crew them right and the concept carries weight, but thinking your just going to turn up and she'll be right I think may expose a couple of minor oversights.
- Yankee
- 2nd Dan
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Aug 2008
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Capt Slong is spot on...
There aren't a lot of Hawks on fires in the US. That should tell you something. Unless they get some kind of exemptions in Australia this may be just a lot of down draft. I too am wondering where the pot of gold for all this is coming from.
I do hope that some how this venture is successful, who knows, maybe someone is forward thinking knowing there's a chance that the "big Orange" may disappear.
Exciting times.
There aren't a lot of Hawks on fires in the US. That should tell you something. Unless they get some kind of exemptions in Australia this may be just a lot of down draft. I too am wondering where the pot of gold for all this is coming from.
I do hope that some how this venture is successful, who knows, maybe someone is forward thinking knowing there's a chance that the "big Orange" may disappear.
Exciting times.
Don't think of yourself as and ugly person. Think of yourself as a beautiful monkey.
- joni
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Apr 2012
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Capt Slong may be onto something with the she'll be right attitude.
In that Aviation Australia article the StarFlight CEO is quoted saying “A tank is a tank, and we could probably get an existing tank retrofitted to make it fit,” Skeen told Australian Aviation.
This seems like something they should be certain on, and have a plan in place, for the CEO to say "we could probably" seems a bit odd.
In that Aviation Australia article the StarFlight CEO is quoted saying “A tank is a tank, and we could probably get an existing tank retrofitted to make it fit,” Skeen told Australian Aviation.
This seems like something they should be certain on, and have a plan in place, for the CEO to say "we could probably" seems a bit odd.
- havick
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1300
- Joined: Jun 2007
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
joni wrote:Capt Slong may be onto something with the she'll be right attitude.
In that Aviation Australia article the StarFlight CEO is quoted saying “A tank is a tank, and we could probably get an existing tank retrofitted to make it fit,” Skeen told Australian Aviation.
This seems like something they should be certain on, and have a plan in place, for the CEO to say "we could probably" seems a bit odd.
I wish them all the best, but I think whoever is running this show will find there a lot more hurdles to jump than they think.
And a tank isn't just a tank. It's just like a Bambi bucket is very different to a monsoon bucket, fast bucket etc. the conair tank has considerable power to punch through heavy canopy whereas the simplex tank (same capacity) just showers the water out and isn't as effective in tall timber/heavy canopy as just one example.
As mentioned earlier it's nice to see new equipment in the country, but I don't think it's going to be the cakewalk that most people on here think.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
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- 1st Dan
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Sep 2007
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
What a logistical nightmare this would be, $170 mil a drop in the bucket !
10 Black hawcks = 20 pilots (without reserves)..
20 engineers plus various ground crews, maybe dedicated fuel trucks as i think they are pressure filled ( not sure) Not to mention office staff and inhouse computer systems and software!
They are a lot braver than I. VERY BALLSY !
All for a 3 to 4 mth window for fire season and maybe a 8 week flood season, when the weather gods say go! What a mountain to climb!
There is not that much lift work in this country to keep busy the rest of the year even for just 4 machines, as we don't have too many major bush fires that need the big guns attend out of our season fire ! I can't imagine what the hourly rate would be on these beasts! No change out of $8 to $10 k per hour as a guestimate surely! Maybe someone can enlighten us on a general hourly rate for them?
Lets just see how that will affect our househod insurance levies, and we will all pay that if you pay council rates, as that writting has already been put on the wall!
Dont get me wrong they area beautiful machine BUT we only have 24 million people in this country and about 6 million taxpayers! NOT 300 million people like the USA!
The money has to come from somewhere to pay the hourly rates to get the return on the private or government funded $170 mil!
I would rather pay for a 214 at 2800 litres per load water with a single pilot and single engineer! Got to be way cheaper to run overall I think !
I am quite sure there will be plenty of other opinions 180 deg opposite to mine!
And yes I am invested in this part of the helicopter industry!
10 Black hawcks = 20 pilots (without reserves)..
20 engineers plus various ground crews, maybe dedicated fuel trucks as i think they are pressure filled ( not sure) Not to mention office staff and inhouse computer systems and software!
They are a lot braver than I. VERY BALLSY !
All for a 3 to 4 mth window for fire season and maybe a 8 week flood season, when the weather gods say go! What a mountain to climb!
There is not that much lift work in this country to keep busy the rest of the year even for just 4 machines, as we don't have too many major bush fires that need the big guns attend out of our season fire ! I can't imagine what the hourly rate would be on these beasts! No change out of $8 to $10 k per hour as a guestimate surely! Maybe someone can enlighten us on a general hourly rate for them?
Lets just see how that will affect our househod insurance levies, and we will all pay that if you pay council rates, as that writting has already been put on the wall!
Dont get me wrong they area beautiful machine BUT we only have 24 million people in this country and about 6 million taxpayers! NOT 300 million people like the USA!
The money has to come from somewhere to pay the hourly rates to get the return on the private or government funded $170 mil!
I would rather pay for a 214 at 2800 litres per load water with a single pilot and single engineer! Got to be way cheaper to run overall I think !
I am quite sure there will be plenty of other opinions 180 deg opposite to mine!
And yes I am invested in this part of the helicopter industry!
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- Silver Wings
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Jul 2017
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Crusty wrote:What a logistical nightmare this would be, $170 mil a drop in the bucket !
10 Black hawcks = 20 pilots (without reserves)..
20 engineers plus various ground crews, maybe dedicated fuel trucks as i think they are pressure filled ( not sure) Not to mention office staff and inhouse computer systems and software!
They are a lot braver than I. VERY BALLSY !
All for a 3 to 4 mth window for fire season and maybe a 8 week flood season, when the weather gods say go! What a mountain to climb!
There is not that much lift work in this country to keep busy the rest of the year even for just 4 machines, as we don't have too many major bush fires that need the big guns attend out of our season fire ! I can't imagine what the hourly rate would be on these beasts! No change out of $8 to $10 k per hour as a guestimate surely! Maybe someone can enlighten us on a general hourly rate for them?
Lets just see how that will affect our househod insurance levies, and we will all pay that if you pay council rates, as that writting has already been put on the wall!
Dont get me wrong they area beautiful machine BUT we only have 24 million people in this country and about 6 million taxpayers! NOT 300 million people like the USA!
The money has to come from somewhere to pay the hourly rates to get the return on the private or government funded $170 mil!
I would rather pay for a 214 at 2800 litres per load water with a single pilot and single engineer! Got to be way cheaper to run overall I think !
I am quite sure there will be plenty of other opinions 180 deg opposite to mine!
And yes I am invested in this part of the helicopter industry!
It's anywhere between $1285- $2600 US an hr to run, depending on which report you read. 4.4 maintenance hrs to flying hours
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- 2nd Dan
- Posts: 330
- Joined: May 2016
Re: Blackhawks for Australia
Depending on which report you read ???
Seriously, one would think those involved would be doing a little more than reading reports. There is no way those numbers are correct.
Regards,
Seriously, one would think those involved would be doing a little more than reading reports. There is no way those numbers are correct.
Regards,
'Mankind has a perfect record in aviation - we have never left one up there!'
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