The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

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The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby FerrariFlyer » Thu Jul 6 2017, 10:23

At the risk of not knowing the full background to this flight it appears, at face value, to be a good example of why it is prudent to not push the envelope and fly into marginal conditions as a visually rated pilot.

This link does appear on the dark side and it is tragic to say the least.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=248_1499297836
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Evil Twin » Thu Jul 6 2017, 10:26

I couldn't watch more than the first 30 seconds of the video knowing the outcome. Horribly sobering viewing..
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby zzodr » Thu Jul 6 2017, 12:48

Yep, and the R44 isn't rated for it either.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Mag seal » Fri Jul 7 2017, 00:35

[quote="FerrariFlyer"]At the risk of not knowing the full background to this flight it appears, at face value, to be a good example of why it is prudent to not push the envelope and fly into marginal conditions as a visually rated pilot."

I don't think a IR qualified pilot would have done any better. There is no approach to follow and no visibility. Most would suffer the same fate in IMC conditions in an unstabilised aircraft. That's why we have SAS and Autopilots fitted to any aircraft that is expected to perform in those conditions.

Just because you can fly on instruments I wouldn't try it in these conditions in this type of aircraft.
My money says it would be the same outcome.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby SpecialGray » Fri Jul 7 2017, 01:29

Sobering viewing indeed. Thanks for sharing Ferrariflyer.

Hopefully sharing of videos such as this and mature discussion will help reduce similar incidents.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby hand in pants » Fri Jul 7 2017, 04:26

I have always been a big believer in the fact that there is no such thing as "inadvertent flight into IMC" (unless of course you are flying at night under NVMC).

Day VFR means you can see cloud coming, unless you are day dreaming or just stupid. To continue on and into cloud in a helicopter such as the one in this video was never going to turn out well. It continues to amaze me that these types of accidents still happen. What ever happened to self preservation and common since. And the saddest thing is that 3 innocent people were killed on what should have been the best day of their lives.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Twistgrip » Fri Jul 7 2017, 07:03

Reluctantly Ive just watched the full 8:58 clip. Horrendous.

He had ample opportunity from the vision to about face and return and not enter cloud.
As others have mentioned its unfortunately a great lesson on what not to do if flying VFR on marginal days, and highlights the pressure of just getting the job done at all cost.

IFR is just that and you need both the equipment and pilot/s to be competent.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Heliflyer » Fri Jul 7 2017, 07:57

That's just awful to watch.

As noted there appears to have been ample opportunity to turn around as conditions worsened. My hope is that the accident and video helps all to learn and avoid such occurrences in the future.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby bladepitch » Fri Jul 7 2017, 09:35

I read an article yesterday about it. The accident happened last december. They crashed just short of destination. The bride was being escorted by her brother and The poor lass in the front seat was 6 months pregnant as well..

This video is tough to watch and some might not agree but if i owned a company it would be part of the induction for new pilots as a reminder of what not to do under any circumstances...
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby flyhuey » Fri Jul 7 2017, 10:03

Mag Seal wrote:
I don't think a IR qualified pilot would have done any better. There is no approach to follow and no visibility. Most would suffer the same fate in IMC conditions in an unstabilised aircraft. That's why we have SAS and Autopilots fitted to any aircraft that is expected to perform in those conditions.
Just because you can fly on instruments I wouldn't try it in these conditions in this type of aircraft.


Oh God!

Basic military aircraft, capable of flying (gasp!) "All-Weather", like the venerable Bell UH-1 Iroquois (Huey) had no Autopilot, no SAS, basic instrumentation that has been in use since WWII, YET we would make Instrument Approaches responding to voice commands from Precision Approach Radar Controller, to zero-zero, all the way to the runway centreline, in special cases, or making Non-precision Approaches. In fact, in 1983, I earned an Instrument ATPL, in one of only two of the earliest civil certified Instrument helicopters, that had no Autopilot, no SAS, basic instrumentation.

Surely, each and everyone who has posted here, including myself, has at some time inadvertently entered Instrument Meteorological Conditions, or done some "scud running", during their flying experience, for a variety of reasons. If not, you will. Suppose you takeoff or land in an environment that suddenly has billowing snow or dust or construction debris. What will you do?

The real issue IS, what will you do and how will you react to it, when you do encounter inadvertent IMC?

You CAN maintain straight and level without an Attitude Indicator, without an Autopilot, without SAS, believe it or not. A working Attitude Indicator just makes it easier to stay upright.

If you have no Instrument Rating, I would strongly urge you to at least get some basic Instrument training, preferably in a helicopter, if not, do it in an older IFR Cessna (old-fashioned Instruments) . . . ask your Instructor to fly it from the Right Seat, so your control inputs would be similar . . . That is manipulating the yoke with your right hand, throttle with your left.

Learn how to make Straight and Level Flight just using Altimeter, Airspeed Indicator, Vertical Speed Indicator, Compass or Compass Card, Turn and Slip Indicator or using the Trim String. Learn what Power Setting, Torque, EGT, TIT, is required for Straight and Level Flight, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Descent, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb. Learn what is a Standard Rate Turn. And, if flying at 90 knots or 120 knots what Angle of Bank on the Attitude Indicator will facilitate that Standard Rate Turn, less than 25 degrees, to be sure. And, while on the subject of Standard Rate Turns, Google any information about "Radius of Turn" and how much ground will be covered, because if you go inadvertent IMC in a tight canyon, in the fog, an
about face
as Twistgrip suggests or
turn around
as Heliflyer suggests could see you slamming IMC into the canyon wall or hilltop. Situational Awareness is key, that is knowing where you are over the ground, all the time, whether VFR or IFR or Night VFR. Further, it IS possible to maintain Straight and Level, even if "Partial Panel" or that is to say one or more instrument has failed or maybe not installed. So, get some partial panel training, as well. You should do this under a Hood. You should get your Instructor to take the role of ATC and give you heading changes, up to 180 degrees, climbs and descents at 300 and 500 fpm, airspeed changes. Take mental notes on power settings required to make a Standard rate Turn to the Right, to the Left. A 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb with a Standard Rate Turn. Know your aircraft. If you have Pitot Heat, turn it on, when you have entered Cloud, especially during the Winter or from +10C to -10C, you might get some icing. Don't panic. Just think and do.

A side benefit of getting some Instrument training is that it will make you fly more precisely, conserving fuel and making the flight smoother for your pax.

So contrary to what has been written you do not need an Autopilot, SAS, Multi-crew to fly IFR or get yourself out of Inadvertent IMC.

I am coming at you with over 5,000 hours Actual Instrument Weather Flying experience + 750 hours in Full-Motion Flight Simulators + 175 hours under the Hood. And, a long time ago, I had been an Instrument Examiner. I know, I know, "I am just an ol' man blowin' wind in my sails."

I am just trying to save your lives and prevent another aircraft accident due to an encounter with inadvertent IMC.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Ops normal » Fri Jul 7 2017, 23:22

Flyhuey they are all nice skills to have. I watched the video in frustration and sadness yesterday morning. I watched it standing next to my machine waiting out fog over my work site. The same thing that guy could have done.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Cleared Hot » Sat Jul 8 2017, 12:56

The bride and brother new how bad the situation was very early in the video, look at them holding each other. This is good to the new guys, never push it, can turn bad very quickly.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Mag seal » Sun Jul 9 2017, 11:21

flyhuey wrote:Mag Seal wrote:
I don't think a IR qualified pilot would have done any better. There is no approach to follow and no visibility. Most would suffer the same fate in IMC conditions in an unstabilised aircraft. That's why we have SAS and Autopilots fitted to any aircraft that is expected to perform in those conditions.
Just because you can fly on instruments I wouldn't try it in these conditions in this type of aircraft.


Oh God!

Basic military aircraft, capable of flying (gasp!) "All-Weather", like the venerable Bell UH-1 Iroquois (Huey) had no Autopilot, no SAS, basic instrumentation that has been in use since WWII, YET we would make Instrument Approaches responding to voice commands from Precision Approach Radar Controller, to zero-zero, all the way to the runway centreline, in special cases, or making Non-precision Approaches. In fact, in 1983, I earned an Instrument ATPL, in one of only two of the earliest civil certified Instrument helicopters, that had no Autopilot, no SAS, basic instrumentation.

Surely, each and everyone who has posted here, including myself, has at some time inadvertently entered Instrument Meteorological Conditions, or done some "scud running", during their flying experience, for a variety of reasons. If not, you will. Suppose you takeoff or land in an environment that suddenly has billowing snow or dust or construction debris. What will you do?

The real issue IS, what will you do and how will you react to it, when you do encounter inadvertent IMC?

You CAN maintain straight and level without an Attitude Indicator, without an Autopilot, without SAS, believe it or not. A working Attitude Indicator just makes it easier to stay upright.

If you have no Instrument Rating, I would strongly urge you to at least get some basic Instrument training, preferably in a helicopter, if not, do it in an older IFR Cessna (old-fashioned Instruments) . . . ask your Instructor to fly it from the Right Seat, so your control inputs would be similar . . . That is manipulating the yoke with your right hand, throttle with your left.

Learn how to make Straight and Level Flight just using Altimeter, Airspeed Indicator, Vertical Speed Indicator, Compass or Compass Card, Turn and Slip Indicator or using the Trim String. Learn what Power Setting, Torque, EGT, TIT, is required for Straight and Level Flight, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Descent, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb. Learn what is a Standard Rate Turn. And, if flying at 90 knots or 120 knots what Angle of Bank on the Attitude Indicator will facilitate that Standard Rate Turn, less than 25 degrees, to be sure. And, while on the subject of Standard Rate Turns, Google any information about "Radius of Turn" and how much ground will be covered, because if you go inadvertent IMC in a tight canyon, in the fog, an
about face
as Twistgrip suggests or
turn around
as Heliflyer suggests could see you slamming IMC into the canyon wall or hilltop. Situational Awareness is key, that is knowing where you are over the ground, all the time, whether VFR or IFR or Night VFR. Further, it IS possible to maintain Straight and Level, even if "Partial Panel" or that is to say one or more instrument has failed or maybe not installed. So, get some partial panel training, as well. You should do this under a Hood. You should get your Instructor to take the role of ATC and give you heading changes, up to 180 degrees, climbs and descents at 300 and 500 fpm, airspeed changes. Take mental notes on power settings required to make a Standard rate Turn to the Right, to the Left. A 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb, a 300 fpm Straight and Level Climb with a Standard Rate Turn. Know your aircraft. If you have Pitot Heat, turn it on, when you have entered Cloud, especially during the Winter or from +10C to -10C, you might get some icing. Don't panic. Just think and do.

A side benefit of getting some Instrument training is that it will make you fly more precisely, conserving fuel and making the flight smoother for your pax.

So contrary to what has been written you do not need an Autopilot, SAS, Multi-crew to fly IFR or get yourself out of Inadvertent IMC.

I am coming at you with over 5,000 hours Actual Instrument Weather Flying experience + 750 hours in Full-Motion Flight Simulators + 175 hours under the Hood. And, a long time ago, I had been an Instrument Examiner. I know, I know, "I am just an ol' man blowin' wind in my sails."

I am just trying to save your lives and prevent another aircraft accident due to an encounter with inadvertent IMC.



Flyhuey/Cassidycopter, do me a favour, go rent an R22/44 stick a Gopro on it and go flying in IMC conditions and don't forget to make approaches to unsurveyed landing spots that you can't see. Get your NOK to post the footage. There was a Russian pilot that posted a couple of videos doing just this. He's dead now mind you.

As for 5000 IMC hours in a Helicopter. Bullcrap
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby PhilJ » Sun Jul 9 2017, 16:04

Every day of the year people,mainly only with private certificates, fly r22s solely by reference to instruments to the standard required to pass a FAA instrument rating.

It's not the machine or the rating that keeps you safe in IIMC long enough to work out how to get back into VMC it's recency on instruments.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Mag seal » Sun Jul 9 2017, 21:13

PhilJ wrote:Every day of the year people,mainly only with private certificates, fly r22s solely by reference to instruments to the standard required to pass a FAA instrument rating.

It's not the machine or the rating that keeps you safe in IIMC long enough to work out how to get back into VMC it's recency on instruments.


Phil,

If you think that flying in VMC conditions but pretending to be IMC with an instructor sitting beside you and with real visability is the same as punching into fog/tropical storm/heavy rain, you are deluded.

Look at the accident rate in US HEMS operations. It's mostly people losing control in bad weather. These would all be IFR rated and current pilots. Sure most get away with it but IMC is best avoided unless you are in a suitably equipped aircraft.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby PhilJ » Mon Jul 10 2017, 03:08

Mag,

I'm not claiming they are the same, simply refuting you need SAS and autopilot to control a helicopter on instruments. As I said it's not the rating or the machine it's recency. I agree though it is better to have all the bells and whistles.

I also think you are misrepresenting the US HEMS accidents, without trawling stats my recollection was that there was a lot of CFIT because of scud running and some IIMC accidents. I'm out of touch with current US HEMS but there used to be a very large number of VFR operators and the pilots although instrument rated were not current.

Recency is in my opinion the key thing.

The instrument training flyhuey is advocating may give VFR pilots options if they do it and find themselves IIMC but it may also give a false sense of security if they are not routinely practicing instrument flying, it is a perishable skill particularly in an unstabilised helicopter. Better to avoid IMC than push personal boundaries because you have in the past been trained on instruments.

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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby SuperF » Mon Jul 10 2017, 10:26

HIP, i agree. for Day, VFR flying in NZ and Oz, very few of us will get into IIMC. some may fly into IMC, but odds are that they were pushing it.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby flyhuey » Thu Jul 13 2017, 12:41

Mag seal
Flyhuey, do me a favour, go rent an R22/44 stick a Gopro on it and go flying in IMC conditions and don't forget to make approaches to unsurveyed landing spots that you can't see. Get your NOK to post the footage. There was a Russian pilot that posted a couple of videos doing just this. He's dead now mind you.


I'll bite.

I really do not know where you are coming from with your know-it-all attitude. Not sure what you are referring to regarding R22/44 GoPro flying in IMC. I flew R22 and instructed in them, back in 1982 and did my Instrument Instructor in one in 1987. I wrote to Frank back in 1982 and said they were a crap design. I stand by that impression, today. I have not flown them since and refuse, given the choice.

unsurveyed landing spots that you can't see
Did it all the time, in the military, including at Night (unaided). . . And, based upon that fine training and experience, did it in civilian life, as well. And, (gasp!) to confined areas in the mountains, as well, higher than anything here in Oz.

As for 5000 IMC hours in a Helicopter. Bullcrap
I am coming at you with over 5,000 hours Actual Instrument Weather Flying experience + 750 hours in Full-Motion Flight Simulators + 175 hours under the Hood. And, a long time ago, I had been a Multi-engine Helicopter Instrument Examiner, based at the 4th busiest airport in the world. Did I specify the 5,000 hours was all in helicopter? Does it really matter? I would surmise making an Instrument Approach to minimums on a Non-precision Approach or making a Cat II Precision Approach to Minimums at 152 knots is a wee bit more challenging than doing a Non-precision Approach to minimums at 90 knots. How about doing it only on two engines in a four engine jet, with an Examiner sitting in the back of the Sim grading every bead of sweat on your brow? Though making a PAR Approach in Zero-Zero, to the ground, at Night in an Army Huey ranks right up there.

Your expression of jealousy and tall poppy syndrome says more about you and your experience or inferiority complex. Let's meet some day for coffee, in the deep south. Bring all your flying credentials and logbooks and I'll bring mine. Then, rather than hiding behind the anonymity of your pseudonym and safety of hiding behind your computer, look me in the eyes and tell me
Bullcrap

And, where do you get "Cassidycopter"?

I was merely investing my time and sharing my knowledge "to save your lives and prevent another aircraft accident due to an encounter with inadvertent IMC."

If you cannot accept that, for what it is, then you have a dangerous attitude. It is the know-it-all, recalcitrant, dangerous attitudes, in Aviation, that cause aircraft accidents and ruin the industry's reputation for everyone striving to be open-minded, switched on, and professional. The creepy, backstabbing types that rise to the top by taking credit for others' hard work, using others' backs as rungs on their career ladder, and disparaging others, because they have some inferiority complex make the Aviation industry hard work . . . much harder than it has to be.

Have you ever held a Multi-engine Command Instrument Rating Aeroplane or Helicopter? Have you ever really
punching into fog/tropical storm/heavy rain
Or, are you throwing words around to make yourself seem like some kind of Helicopter hero to those whom hang on your every word?

This is not facebook. Man up! Look me in the eyes and tell me
Bullcrap
And, there is the point, Mag seal, anyone who has a negative opinion about me, have never met me and/or never seen my credentials and logbooks. Using your pseudonyms, just spread rumour and innuendo, like a bunch of ol' women, in a small town gossiping over a cup of tea.


PhilJ
instrument flying, it is a perishable skill
You make a good point . . . Typically, an Instrument Rated Pilot's scan of the Instruments becomes slow, and he may overshoot or undershoot his altitude, when not current. Depending upon the Instrument Rated Pilot's training and level of experience and time on type, he has received up to that point, he can still keep shiny side up, knows what a Standard Rate Turn is, can figure out how to climb or descend at 500 or 1,000fpm, etc. Do the basics OK, but may not be ATPL standards the first flight coming out of non-currency . . . It tends to be recalling the regulations verbatim when an Examiner asks some finer point.
Last edited by flyhuey on Thu Jul 13 2017, 14:43, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby Twistgrip » Thu Jul 13 2017, 12:54

A wise man once said to me, beware the man that pumps up his own tyres!.

I am coming at you with over 5,000 hours Actual Instrument Weather Flying experience + 750 hours in Full-Motion Flight Simulators + 175 hours under the Hood. And, a long time ago, I had been a Multi-engine Helicopter Instrument Examiner, based at the 4th busiest airport in the world. Did I specify the 5,000 hours was all in helicopter? Does it really matter? I would surmise making an Instrument Approach to minimums on a Non-precision Approach or making a Cat II Precision Approach to Minimums at 152 knots is a wee bit more challenging than doing a Non-precision Approach to minimums at 90 knots. How about doing it only on two engines in a four engine jet, with an Examiner sitting in the back of the Sim grading every bead of sweat on your brow? Though making a PAR Approach in Zero-Zero, to the ground, at Night in an Army Huey ranks right up there.
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Re: The risks of flying into IMC...when you're likely not rated to do so

Postby flyhuey » Thu Jul 13 2017, 13:15

Twistgrip
A wise man once said to me, beware the man that pumps up his own tyres!.


I also heard and read on this forum "he who teaches himself, has a fool for a teacher" . . . Or, something like that. I taught myself to fly two helicopters and definitely more than two aeroplanes. Went on to get jobs on both, one a recip and one a turbine. The single seat aeroplanes, I had one chance to get it right. An old man, the owner of a Charter company, who I went to see about a job, after all day flying a Jet Ranger, fished into his top drawer, threw the keys to his pride and joy, a shiny Cessna 310Q. "But, but, Sir, I have never flown a Cessna 310, before", I whimpered. The old man, Ace Darrah, replied, "Well, Sonny, if ye can fly one them thar whirly clipters, I think you'll manage. Go take 'er around the pattern a half dozen times and bring 'er back. If ye like it, the job is yours." I took it around the pattern to make six takeoffs and landings, from a busy international airport. My last Final Approach, the Left (Critical) Engine Throttle Cable snapped, about 500 feet AGL. It was spring loaded to Wide Open Throttle. The 310 yawed, I countered with Rudder, whilst giving Full Throttle on the Right Engine, and made a Go-Around. No Checklist for that. No Instructor to babysit me. I came up with a plan to make a Normal Traffic Pattern, get dirty early, to increase Drag and slow the aircraft and then as soon as the Mains touched the runway, I would use the Left Engine's Mixture Control, like a Throttle and Closed it, taxied clear and back to parking on the Right Engine. Ace remarked, "I wondered what that noise was all about." I got the job and became the exclusive pilot for the CEO of a Gold Mining company, who always chartered that aircraft. Bear in mind, that was the first time I had ever laid eyes on a Cessna 310Q and never had any training in it. That would not be the only time during my career the Emergency Checklist did not cover the scenario, yet I made a safe landing or got a job as a result. Gawd, how did I ever do it?

I know it makes you feel superior to disparage or discount what I have done, especially to regurgitate some tired and inane quote. Don't care, really. I know what I have done and what I have accomplished -and, I can prove it. Though, I definitely have nothing to prove to you, as I do not care whether you believe me or not. Same offer stands Twistgrip. Look me in the eyes. Bring all your sh!t and lay it on the table. Mine fits into two leather bags, one weighing 11.3 kg and the other 8.6kg, plus four more logbooks (my earliest) are in storage with my military records and that says nothing about the actual flying I have done in at least 44 countries.

I suppose you were trying to make some lame point Twistgrip with your false modesty. Shirley you wear a burqa.
Last edited by flyhuey on Thu Jul 13 2017, 14:37, edited 2 times in total.

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