To pay or not to pay??????????

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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sat Mar 13 2010, 06:00

Mid-term Newbie - ahh correct! That's what happens when you don't do your sums. Sorry.

LAL - You seem to be of the opinion that aviation is some magical world where 'it's different' so therefore the requirement to follow employment laws does not exist. Good to hear you're a professional pilot and therefore wouldn't dream of not adhering to the Instrument Flight Rules. So why are those rules scarosanct to you, but not the other laws that apply to the industry? I'm not making a personal attack on you, I'm attacking your lack of logic as it relates to whether aviation business owners should obey the law or not.
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Sun Mar 14 2010, 03:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby LivinAtLarge » Sat Mar 13 2010, 06:22

Hugh Bosh,

My head is getting sore from banging this brick wall.

I AGREE with you, it is NOT right.

I can not speak as an employer as I am not. Have a worked for no money, NO. Have a worked for little, YES when I was starting out. Would I again if I was starting out, YES. I took that sacrifice to get a head. Does not make it right by a long shot. But my alternative was to say, pay me more.... then sit around watching other people live their dreams. Or go to court, with money and time that I did not have.

I don't believe people should break the law, any law. I just stated that people do.

Maybe I am alone in my thinking or logic, or maybe I am just not good at getting my opinion across. Either way I think I have flogged this horse to death. Besides I think Droptmcguts is waiting by the bike rack after school to beat me up, Good thing mum drove me to school.

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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sat Mar 13 2010, 07:08

Pay, conditions, right vs wrong....always an interesting topic that arouses passion and sometimes anger from a few. The information, experiences and views we all find interesting, however none of us like reading about the insults or name calling. If you feel like slinging an insult or three, go your hardest via the PM function. I'm sure from here on in we can all be mature enough to keep it clean, whether we earn $12k a year or $38k a month.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Mar 14 2010, 00:23

CY HELI, I have just read your comments and was not even aware of the inquiry into wages in your blog back in Feb 09, When I related to award wages and peoples input im talking about over 15 years ago. If I had known about this enquiry I would have been very interested to have a input into any discussions.
To all you experts out there, once again please tell us did you walk the pavements, do the hard yards, how long did it take you to get good wages, or any wages, or did you come through the military. What ever way is not important, what is important is how are we going to get a structured , safe and paid career path for new pilots, that all operators adhere to.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Mar 14 2010, 00:54

PJ - as you correctly pointed out in your last post, it is completely irrelevant how people got into the industry and whether they worked for free, for subsistance wages, the award wage or above it. Just because something happens one way, doesn't make it right - something LAL acknowledged in his last post. The question should be, how do we ensure that new professional pilots, get paid in accordance with the law.

Clearly, this is not an easy question to answer, but once again, business owners currently have no choice but to pay their pilots the award (or better). If the business is not in a position to pay the award then the only options left are

*employ casuals,
*employ part-timers,
*employ contractors,
*get the full-time staff to fly more often,
*don't employ anyone until the business can afford it.

It appears that you have a model approach to introducing newbies to the industry. If others in the industy feel that newbies shouldn't be paid the award rate, then perhaps the industry should look at something like an aviation traineeship or similar? I doubt very much that anyone would have any success in convincing FWA to reduce the award. In any case, some points from the FWA website:

Employers and employees cannot agree to a rate of pay which is less than the applicable minimum wage.
. This is meant to prevent the race to the bottom that we currently see in our industry.

If you were going to employ a hangar/office rat with a view to moving him into pilot duties at a later date, the min wage is:

The federal minimum wage is currently $14.31 per hour or $543.78 per 38 hour week (before tax). If you are covered by a pay scale, it will contain the relevant minimum wage rates.
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Sun Mar 14 2010, 03:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Mar 14 2010, 02:48

Hugh Bosh, if I stated earlier incorrectly what I have been paying it is $150-00 per day, not a week.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Mar 14 2010, 03:02

PJ - Sweet, have edited previous post, my apologies (that's happened twice now about the same figure... must be getting old).

So after tax, that's pretty close to the award (or better) isn't it? :?
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby helibird » Tue Mar 16 2010, 04:16

Hello,

I think a point this thread is missing is that once you have paid for your licence you might have something left over to help you through that first job. So we are now breeding pilots that can afford to assist themselves through the start of their careers. Doesn't this breed an elitist pilot who may not even be able to fly well but can afford to fly for free. What does this say about the operator who would employ a pilot just because he can fund himself? What does this say for the future of our industry?

PJ - I have met some of your previous pilots and they speak highly of their time with you - Congratulations on getting it right.

My background:
With regard to starting out in the industry. I got my licence in 2002, rang around, knocked on doors and a year later started my first job in Canberra flying an R22. I got paid a $300 a week retainer plus $10 per hour flight time. I was flying around 2 hours a week. At the time you could not get a room to rent for under $120 per week (complete with mice) and once I had put fuel in my car and the government had taken their fair share I was left with a debt of around $2000 after a year. No biggie, I was on my way! Wait, the company I worked for decided it wasn't viable to run the machine anymore and made me redundant.

I am still trying to get that start after leaving for 3 years to get on top of the mounting debts that come with trying to get a start in the industry. But hey, I'm still here and I'm still knocking so there must be something worth staying for.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby fly in the sky » Tue Mar 16 2010, 21:03

apparently not all operators get the cool sum of $1600 per hour for a 44, i have heard that Fugro the gravity survey crowd that does thousands of hours p/a wont pay more than $650 per hour for a 44 and there is all this tricky stuff in the contract where you can only charge for flying time. as you land every 2 kilometers and ground idle while the crew member does his stuff it makes for a long day. of course the pilot gets to log heaps of time at the controls (happy days) it is not so hot for the operator and this is a sought after contract would you believe.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby droptmcguts » Tue Mar 16 2010, 23:38

i have heard that Fugro the gravity survey crowd that does thousands of hours p/a wont pay more than $650 per hour for a 44 and there is all this tricky stuff in the contract where you can only charge for flying time.


So who's the fool then,? I would suggest that any operator that takes a restrictive contract!! :wink:
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Porno » Mon Apr 5 2010, 20:34

I think the pilots and employers are to blame for creating this problem in the industry. (obviously) and not all... a small majority.

If no pilot would work unless being paid, then an employer would be forced to pay someone to get them in.

And another point, what about workcover? If you are unpaid, more than likely your not covered if you get injured.
.. ..bullsh*t it doesnt hurt!.. ..
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Mon Apr 5 2010, 22:53

Porno wrote:
And another point, what about workcover? If you are unpaid, more than likely your not covered if you get injured.


I think you're right Porno.

Workcover information: http://www.workcover.com/custom/files/empguidemiscell.pdf

Prescribed Volunteers
Under Section 103a, the Crown (the State) is deemed to be the employer of voluntary workers if they are engaged in work which is of benefit to the State. The
type of work has to be a prescribed class of work. Regulation 14 sets out the prescribed class of work which includes volunteer firefighters, members of the
C.F.S., fire control officers under the Country Fires Act.

Other Volunteers
Volunteers of organisations are not paid remuneration and accordingly not covered under the Act. However, volunteer workers can be deemed to be in prescribed class of work where they are engaged in work which is for the benefit of the State, under Section 103(a).

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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby DJ » Tue Apr 6 2010, 05:24

pj,

In reply to your question "Which is the better way?" in your original post, in short, I don't know. When I was on the hunt I don't think I would have offered my services free of charge willingly, im glad it didn't come to that. My first position was actually in an apprenticeship role as a ginger beer with scenics, test flights and the like on the side. I think my pay as a first year was about $200 a week after tax. (Praise God the wife and kids weren't on the scene at that time) But I was getting paid not as a pilot but on the award for an apprentice. Probably a little different situation than most.

Prior to this I found a mustering operator who got me a job on the neighbouring property to where they were based and told me to call whenever I had time off. I only got 2 hours from this arrangement as time off was hard to come by and it wasn't a particularly good mustering season. I believe these types of arrangements where the operator has the passion and desire to give a foot up to low or no hour pilots but can't afford to pay them could be one answer.

The whitsundays is a very transient population I believe and the islands are constantly looking for workers. If I had a good operator like yourself willing to give me hours when available with little or no pay, I would be heading for the islands (or airlie) and getting a job close by. That takes care of the money side of things, while some delicate rostering and shift swapping would hopefully make me available when I was needed to fly.

When I eventually got a flying only job, I started on 25K. Once i had 50 ICUS hours required it went up to 30K, aswell as accomodation paid for (Ah the memories). About 2 years later I was on the Award, this time without accom. included.

pj, thanks for putting on low hour pilots, I for one appreciate it very much. I have only heard good things from pilots who have flown for you. Having done a stint across the water as you put it, I always looked at your operation as a very professional outfit. Well done.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Heli » Tue Apr 6 2010, 10:47

Whoosh wrote:If helicopter operators cant afford to pay pilots, who by definition are highly skilled and highly qualified regardless of hours then either their operations are not profitable, they want to keep too much money for themselves or more likely the whole industry underprices itself in the market. Do the math, on a cost benefit analysis the use of helicopters as a mode of transport or operating platform is competitive against other options, they also offer operational benefits not available to other modes of transport, so.....let every operator in the country unilaterally agree to increase prices across the board by 10% from 1st July. Fuel companies do it, grocery stores do it, banks do it....why not helicopter operators????
Then we can all share a reasonable return for our investment, whether it be in an aircraft or licence to fly it. :D


Unfortunately there will be (and always have been) operators who confuse cash flow with profit. Nearly 20 years ago in Victoria, 206 hourly rates were abysmal, held down by one operator. When he disappeared from the scene the 3 main players all changed their rates by some 15-20%, and started making money. Not only that, but no one lost any business as there was no option for the clients but to pay the proper price. A few years ago a new (cashed up) operator came on the scene with a new EC120, which was charged at a significantly lower price than Bell 206's. Good in the short term for the owner, but not good for the industry long term. Charter rates in Australia are way down on what they should be, across the board until you get to major offshore/long term contracts for big iron.

Even our home grown Government departments are culpable, paying low rates for helicopters on such as Fire contracts. He who has the Gold makes the Rules, but they do abuse this power. Especially when top dollar is often paid to overseas operators :roll:

It would be a wonderful industry if we didn't have the low cost operators depressing the rates, but apart from the risk of Price Fixing charges from the Feds, I don't think that proper rates will happen :cry:
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby slapperhead » Thu Apr 22 2010, 20:29

Hi to All, had this in drafts for a while

To pay or not to pay? Seems to me that if there is an award it has to paid by law and should be used as a minimum base guide. My understanding is that before the latest award came out that if a company didn't recognise AFAP then they were not respondent to the award and could virtually pay whatever, great for some people who ok give new pilots a start but pay what they like. I believe that the new award was put in place so that now all pilots new,old,low time, high time or whatever have a minimum wage, a safety net. The new award is based on a 38hr week and comes into line with the rest of the country and the NES. If you look at the casual rate in the award for a casual day's work the minimum rate is 4 flight hours pay which works out around the $258 that's a fair way higher than the $150 PJ pays. Yes some of us have done the yards and been paid crap to get hours but in my book we need to move with the times follow the law and if there is an award then pay it. So to pay or not to pay my vote is to pay, and yes I have employed people over the years and guess what paid the award or higher.

PJ Like anybody who employs people you are to be congratulated for getting out there and creating jobs, I for one have certainly not contributed to the industry as much as you have, however I believe you have a responsibility to those people you employ, one of which is to pay according to the award it's the Law, I suggest you read the award and please correct me if I'm wrong, but i think your pilots may be due for a pay rise. $258 - $150 = $108 more a day. by the way $150 is not near the award PJ it's about 60%
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Thu Sep 22 2011, 01:50

To all those experts. How many of you have employeed bare / low time pilots. How many of you are in your own business. ?
A bare licenced pilot takes longer to do a tour, takes longer to do a pre flight, takes longer to take off and land, takes longer to make decissions, takes longer to learn about the area his is working in and his environment, he needs to be taught how to fly safely, effeciently, he needs to learn air skills, airmanship, awareness around his aircraft and any other aircraft in his flight path. And if he is a young pilot also life skills. This is why the majority of helicopter companies do not employ bare /low time pilots. I do. I could do what most companies do and say f%*k you come back when you have more experience....
So if you want to get up some one then get up all those companies that could employ low time pilots but dont. Get up those companies that dont pay pilots. I have pilots coming through every month with some disgusting stories about what they have had to do just to get a start, looking for work. Im involved in tourism and it is a hard business, Queensland has had a beating this past 18 months. My pilots earn more than I do. So put your money where your mouth is. Start a business and pay a bare CHPL the award. Good luck because you are going to need it. I give my pilots over 8000hours of air experience in a mutitude of different fields, as well running sucessful businesses prior to getting into aviation, for free. What are you guys doing for low time pilots.................
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Thu Sep 22 2011, 02:41

Slapperhead If you were a bare licenced pilot and I liked your attitude you would get up to $39,000 a year.At around 500 hours up to $46800. Have you employeed any bare licenced pilots. Ive laid my balls on the line here . How about you ring up all those companies that dont pay much if at all.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby integrity » Thu Sep 22 2011, 03:44

Hey PJ,

Just did a bit deeper into those pockets old chum.... Just up the pay to $258 a day for a newbie who needs constant care and nurturing, probably doesn't have a clue about customer service yet, and hope that they can still give a good solid comentary to their fat tourists on board who are forcing the machine to work at it's limits whilst trying to nuzzel it into a tight little pad in a downwind spot without stuffing that tail rotor into the pretty palm tree! Oh and how about a company car for them too? All this whilst the weather turns crap, the economy is crap, no regions are spending a cent on marketing, and you are left holding the office wondering where all the tourists have gone? But at least your newbie who you had the guts and goodwill to give a break to is getting their $258 a day to sit on their bum!

Get real people, running a business in this country is bloody hard work. While some of you bleat on and on about being paid the "correct and legal" dollars you are entitled to, the business owner is trying to figure out how to pay insurances, group wages, public liability, advertisng, membership fees to associations, donate to every good cause, save for the up coming 100 hourly and hoping like hell that a little flashing light in the cockpit or an incideous oil leak down the side doesn't mean another "unexpected" $50k engineering bill.

If any of you think that running a small helicopter business off your own bat (not some hand-out from mum and dad's trust fund), is easy, then go and try it. I have, and there is nothing in the world more true.. if you want to make a small fortune out of helicopters - start with a big one!

Good on you Pete for doing what you have done over the years. You have started many good pilots on a healthy road to a decent career. Hope the phones are ringin' and the machines out flyin'.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Scud » Thu Sep 22 2011, 06:57

Good on you PJ...I take my hat off to you.

You offered me a job back in 2007 when I had a little under 300 hrs. I did accept intially but then didn't because another opportunity came up...better money and turbine time. In hindsight though, I probably shouldv'e accepted your offer as I would most likely have more hours now, perhaps not as many turbine hours, but more hours all the same and perhaps enjoying another path. That's not to say I'm unhappy with where I'm at now in all aspects of my aviation path, just a retrospective view of what has been. Funny thing is, the guy I was working for back then was accusing you of poaching 'his' pilots! haha :wink:

Just as a small comment on the wages back then, you were in fact offering more than I was getting from the employer I was leaving, which was $110 a day if I recall, employed as a casual and paid an additional small token amount for each hour flown. Being casual, it was also a matter of: sick day=no pay, short on work=no pay, annual leave=no pay, etc etc. Therefore you're offer was more attractive than what I was on.

I acknowledge it must be bloody hard trying to make a profit out of a tourism helicopter business so again, good on you PJ. Sure, we all want to get paid a suitable wage/salary but let's face it, if you want a start in the industry, be prepared to do some hard-yards and suck it up for at least the early stages (i.e. pre 500hrs perhaps).

Having also worked around the Whitsundays along side the guys at AA and having got to know some of them, all have gone on to bigger and better things thanks to the opportunity with you PJ.

Keep up the good work Pete. Stay 'hands-on' with your guys and keep the training up to them and you'll always have dedicated, focused and pro-active new pilots with the right attitude knocking on your door mate.

Stay safe and good luck.

Scud

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