Ex military V civilian background

Looking for somewhere to post an unusual question? Got something that doesn't fit anywhere else? Do it here...
Airbeater
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 32
Joined: Apr 2011

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Airbeater » Wed Sep 27 2017, 09:58

Flog :roll:
User avatar
skypig
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1467
Joined: Nov 2005

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby skypig » Wed Sep 27 2017, 10:00

flyhuey wrote:Skypig
A lot of the pilots I fly with are ex mil, and a lot aren't.
I honestly can't tell the difference.

Simon, surely you remember the difference. I was there for you. I believe I provided you the best support I could muster -back in 2005.
.......


Bob, I’m always grateful for any support I receive. Thank you.

Fellow pilots have helped me greatly over the years. Many with a Military background, and many without.

There is little doubt the military training is less cost restrained, which has to be a good thing.
Also, the ability to “reject” applicants has advantages.

Us “civvies” typically have to search out qualifications and experience in areas like “ME/IFR” post training, and often after considerable SE VFR. This is a bit of a culling process in its self.

Again, I’m talking about pilots that have plenty of experience, but I can’t tell the difference between guys with mustering experience and gunship experience when I fly two pilot ME IFR with them.

“Viva le lack of difference”
Practice
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 59
Joined: Feb 2009

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Practice » Wed Sep 27 2017, 10:04

hand in pants wrote:ET, KF, dead on.
Practice, perfect example for you.

Certainly no your average ex-mil bloke, but you do breed them.


Not one of ours mate.
flyhuey
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 11
Joined: Mar 2014

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby flyhuey » Wed Sep 27 2017, 11:08

Simon, no need to thank me. Someone needed to stand up to a bully, stand up for what is right, and be on the side of the pilots, rather than looking out for their own skin and protecting their career (not burning any bridges). It cost me a potent line entry on my CV, that always leads to something better and a decent annual salary for 2005. I would do it again. The alternative was to be a fishy kunt, yes man, slink around, put up with a bad situation, hope CASA doesn't find out, and be one of those nod-nod, wink-wink "team players" you see in job ads, where "Commercial Realities" take precedence over Aviation Safety and regulatory compliance.

For the knockers, doubting thomases, those whom perpetuate the tall poppy syndrome, and jealous backstabbers and gossipy bitches:
Image
Logbook 5 of 7
NASA Astronauts whom were my passengers whom signed my log book. NASA spends millions of dollars on the cream of their crop. Think they would allow some cowboy or "Flog" fly them around?
Last edited by flyhuey on Wed Sep 27 2017, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
The Scarlett Harlot
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 85
Joined: Sep 2009

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Wed Sep 27 2017, 11:31

flyhuey wrote:Simon, no need to thank me. Someone needed to stand up to a bully, stand up for what is right, and be on your side. I would do it again. It cost me a potent line entry on my CV, that always leads to something better and a decent annual salary for 2005. The alternative was to be a fishy kunt, yes man, slink around, put up with a bad situation, hope CASA doesn't find out, and be one of those nod-nod, wink-wink "team players" you see in job ads, where "Commercial Realities" take precedence over Aviation Safety and regulatory compliance.

For the knockers, doubting thomases, those whom perpetuate the tall poppy syndrome, and jealous backstabbers and gossipy bitches:
Image
Logbook 5 of 7
NASA Astronauts whom were my passengers whom signed my log book. NASA spends millions of dollars on the cream of their crop. Think they would allow some cowboy or "Flog" fly them around?


I would never have thought so, but there you go...
User avatar
Twistgrip
3rd Dan
3rd Dan
Posts: 944
Joined: Sep 2006

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Twistgrip » Wed Sep 27 2017, 16:11

I was wondering after all these years when we’d be finally joined by an Astranaught .. 54321....
"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened!!"
Heliduck
1st Dan
1st Dan
Posts: 216
Joined: Jan 2008

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Heliduck » Wed Sep 27 2017, 16:49

"Recruit for attitude, train for experience".
My generalization -
Civvie - If you have the money but not the right attitude you'll get a licence but probably won't get a career.
Mil - You don't need the money, but without the right attitude you won't get the licence.

Being civvie, my formal training has been limited to what I could afford in order to get a job or what the company needed to provide for CASA/customer requirements, the rest was up to my attitude & self discipline to teach myself. I'm sure the thrill I get from an accurate longline load placement is the same as the thrill the Mil man gets from an accurate approach on NVG's, I would love to do the NVG thing as I'm sure some Mil pilots would love to do production longline work. My point is that at our core we are all the same, it's just the wrapper that's different.
"Plan twice...Fly once"
User avatar
Eric Hunt
3rd Dan
3rd Dan
Posts: 705
Joined: Sep 2006

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Eric Hunt » Wed Sep 27 2017, 21:53

Luckily, the Oz military didn't have the horsefeathers that FlyHubert had to go through.

The flying training was still as demanding, with around 50% scrub rate, but we didn't (in the late 60s/early 70s) go through the scream in your face spit on you rubbish, and nobody got booted for having a chocky bar in the drawer.

But the rest is pretty right. I have seen both sides, as a Training Flight Commander in a chopper squadron, to being Chief Flying Instructor of a civvy flying school, and there is absolutely no comparison between the students I saw on each side. 10 hours to solo in a turbine (Huey), vs 20 hrs+++ in an R22; 125 hrs to wings in the turbine, with CIR, NVMC, low level, formation, sling rating, hoist rating, blah blah against 125 hrs to be allowed to be paid to fly an R22 Day VFR and with a low level rating.

The drop-out rates were about the same, civvy guys running out of money because they learned too slow.

Huey, have those days gone, or is it still like that Over There?
User avatar
Yankee
1st Dan
1st Dan
Posts: 281
Joined: Aug 2008

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Yankee » Wed Sep 27 2017, 22:41

Its still like that over there... Initial selection has become more restrictive. Washout about 43%.
Pressure on to keep guys in.
Don't think of yourself as and ugly person. Think of yourself as a beautiful monkey.
User avatar
Hello Pilots
2nd Dan
2nd Dan
Posts: 362
Joined: Jul 2010

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Hello Pilots » Wed Sep 27 2017, 22:44

Interesting and kind of expected.
Notice the majority of Civvy guys are expressing their views on working together alongside the ex-mil guys with both pros and cons, then you get the mil guys saying how good they are and that the civvy guys couldn't do the mil guys work. Has one ex mil guy expressed the same?
And you mil guys wonder why civvy guys think some of you have this grandiose image of yourselves.

As for old mate with his log book....mate don't flatter yourself, I know of plenty of SE VFR utility pilots that have flown more prominent persons.
Remember, they sent those first guys to space from lowest bid agencies.......sooooo the chopper pilots credentials perhaps didn't mean JACK....probably a civvy then :D :D :D

I personally have worked with, flown alongside and check and trained both sides of the coin and have my opinions on the matter, and really at the end of the day if we all get home safely after a solid days work then I guess, in our own fields, everyones training (and recurrent training) was just as good as the next.

On a side note, do the likes of C17 pilots think their training is better than a captain of 787 ?
Is Wingslapper having the same debate? :D pop;
blackstump
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 27
Joined: Nov 2010

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby blackstump » Thu Sep 28 2017, 00:27

FLy huey
my god we are in the presence of legend
if i wanted to read a biography it sure as s#!t would not be yours as it would seem to be in the fiction section- you make Hoover, Armstrong, Yeager and so on look like student pilots
arent you the bloke who without any training took a twin fixed wing up and saved the day when it all went pear shaped in a completely fictitious and no possible set of circumstances
you sir are a complete tosser and would i suggest be terrible in a multi crew environment as it would all be about you

take away his computer for gods sake
User avatar
Eric Hunt
3rd Dan
3rd Dan
Posts: 705
Joined: Sep 2006

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Eric Hunt » Thu Sep 28 2017, 03:51

Settle down there, Stumpy. And perhaps you could upgrade your computer to one that has a spellchecker and punctuation.

The point I made about the mil training is that these pilots are ready for an EMS job from day 30 of their 3-month helicopter course, having learned IFR, hoisting and sling loads (but not long-lining, a skill I wish I had learned) well before getting their wings. Continuation training keeps these skills up there, so after their 6-year ROSO they might only have 2000 hrs but they are quality hours.

BUT! Then they have to deal with the penny-pinching back-stabbing civil environment, where a boss has a fit if the machine gets a write-up on the maintenance release, and you are expected to carry all sorts of faults because the boss can't afford a service and he owes the maintenance company a tailboom or two. This is where the mental attitude of "do it right, first time" has to be broken down or severely bent to allow him to work, compared with a civvy pilot who has been in this environment his whole career.

Yes, it is a challenge. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, it is now a rag I wipe the tailboom with. I have been very lucky to work for 11 years with a (civvy) boss who would spend money on maintenance when it was needed, on training at regular intervals, and sending his staff to HAI in the USA as a reward for every 3 years of good work. But I have also worked with one who demanded his students pay for a cup of coffee in the kitten. kilo india tango charlie hotel echo november

Horses for courses.

Edit to say: this website will not allow "k1tchen", it substitutes Kitten .
Last edited by Eric Hunt on Thu Sep 28 2017, 05:40, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
bladepitch
3rd Dan
3rd Dan
Posts: 602
Joined: Jul 2006

Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby bladepitch » Thu Sep 28 2017, 04:01

Flyhuey you are a bit full on but none the less entitled to your opinion and your achievements would be appreciated and valued in the right circle...

We all know and hear stories about how the mil tests peoples limits. We all know they do do it for a reason. If you want to put yourself through all that then power to you. It was your choice...

Civi guys have fought their own battles right the way along to acheive their goal..

My view ...the ones ive met.. only positive really..

Ive flown with a lot of mil guys.
Past chief pilots, all my check and trainers, line trainers and as a multi crew... all happen to come from navy or army.
99% are a Great bunch of guys who are naturally confident (arent we all) but more so are quiet, humble and relaxed. They are not regimented in that it was their way (military way) or the highway.. plenty of ways to skin a cat..They never pressed their background onto anyone and they dont talk about what they went through unless someone enquired specifically or it was for a good laugh..( ive heard some cracking stories!)
If you did the work ( professionalism, cockpit disipline and focus) then they respected you and All have offered help above and beyond what was asked or expected..

I work with a lot of them now and they are professional in everyway..

Respect comes naturally from not only the above attributes but that at some point, as my ex mil crewman said once, "when you join the military you write an open cheque with your mortality.. when there is no conflict its all happy but when its all on.. that cheque may get cashed in..

That alone deserves respect..

Civi pilots ive worked with are just the same

No need to badmouth anyone.. we all just want to enjoy a career in aviation..

You create your own luck with hard work and persistance..

A ratio of mil and civi in any company is up to the cheif pilot. They set the culture and it flows from there...

Return to “The Pilots Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest