Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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paymaster
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby paymaster » Sun Nov 16 2008, 12:02

I have updated the CHC and Bristows pay scales http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18. If anyone has any further pay and condition updates please let me know. As always in the strictest of confidence and all PM`s are deleted after extracting the data.

Regards

Paymaster.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby skypig » Sun Nov 16 2008, 13:22

Whether you earn $25K or $250K / year, getting a large (ish) payment if you permanently lost your licence on medical grounds could help. :shock:

I understand that the AFAP are currently working on the GA award – so even newbies could potentially benefit fairly early in their career. :D

I personally am happy to be a member, and pay the LOL insurance premium. I have no strong feelings about others joining – just a “niggle” about some reaping rewards without contribution. :wink:
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby skypig » Mon Nov 17 2008, 01:36

I just got an Email from the AFAP, some may be interested:-

All Pilots' in General Aviation should be aware that Allowances in the Awards have increased as of 30 October 2008. For a copy of the updated Awards follow the links below or go to the AFAP website.
Helicopter Pilots’ General Aviation Award http://www.afap.org.au/files/OB8CY7G9XI/Heli_Award_as_at_30_Oct_08.pdf (Paymaster)





8) 8)
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby helothere » Mon Nov 17 2008, 03:56

You beat me to it piggy. I too am a member and feel similar sentiments to our learned friend the pig. I pay a portion of my wage that I would not have if it were not for the AFAP. Those in two minds should check it out, those reaping the benefits should cough up.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby upright » Mon Nov 17 2008, 06:21

They're taking the piss

$65000 for an offshore captain flying a twin more than 9 tonnes with 15 years experience.

And they want our money to help negotiate, a supervisor at maccas is on more than that
Last edited by upright on Mon Nov 17 2008, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby Mongrel Dog » Mon Nov 17 2008, 06:32

Upright,
I don't think you'll find too many multi IFR captains working for an award. They are usually under an EBA and thanks tho the help of the AFAP a year 15 captain working for one of the big three can expect to make 150k per annum before adding DTA.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby VFR44 » Mon Nov 17 2008, 08:26

Yep they're taking the piss,
Why not call it the offshore award and all have a giggle about how low the figures are :lol: The rest of the heli industry are doing their own thing anyway. It's totaly unrealistic to think that there are many pilots out there actually getting ALL of the entitlements on that or the previous award. Sure some companies are paying the $42k..Most more when you have a few hours and a few tricks up your sleeve. But few would be paying all the little niceties that the offshore boys enjoy.
Why not write an award that is realistic for GA tourism/airwork????( where the majority of us start) One that might have a chance of being adhered to!
Take that award to my boss and he'll find an inventive place to put it! :lol: :lol:
" So long...And thanks for all the fish!"
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby skypig » Mon Nov 17 2008, 12:24

It's totaly (totally) unrealistic to think that there are many pilots out there actually getting ALL of the entitlements on that or the previous award.

Nice thought process – keep it up otherwise you might progress and help those that follow in your footsteps progress. Oc:=

There are one hundred and nine pilots at my company that get ALL the entitlements of the EBA. :D

Look at the negativity from some pilots on this post. :shock: One “contributes” -
The're (They’re) taking the piss $65000 for an offshore captain flying a twin more than 9 tonnes with 15 years experience. And they want our money to help negotiate, a supervisor at maccas is on more than that


Indicating that for some reason the AFAP has allowed the GA RW Award to be too little. :?:

Then the top comment indicating that the award is so generous that not many pilots would actually receive it. :?:

AFAP isn’t an acronym for “All Flying All Powerful”. Perhaps the criticisers can point me to the organisation that has helped get a better GA RW Award for new pilots to aspire to early in their career, and one that has assisted in the EBAs that most experienced pilots(and many others indirectly) benefit from? :idea:

Nothing like pulling together as a team. Oh right to do that we’d have to be a team..... :idea: :idea: :idea:

Skypig 8) 8)
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby Heliduck » Mon Nov 17 2008, 20:53

Skypig - I think it a bit arrogant of you to condescend another slappers' comments on the award just because they don't agree with your ethos. By stating their opinion aren't they "contributing" to the debate? It appears to me that you think you are holier than the rest of us because you are a member of the AFAP. Excuse my ignorance, but just who did "allow" the award to be so low? If the AFAP are to take the credit for having an award which a low time pilot is happy with, then shouldn't they also accept the criticism when discussing the same award which experienced pilots are unhappy with?
From your comments I assume you are with a large operator, paid under an EBA which AFAP helped with & you are happy with that. Excellent news, & that's great. There are, however, a lot of experienced pilots working for small operators in specialised fields who have negotiated incomes(without input from AFAP) of nearly triple what the award specifies for their experience level, which to me makes the award irrelevant. As you have formed the opinion that everyone should join AFAP based on your experience, others have similarly decided that AFAP's award is nothing more than an insult based on their experience.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is what has come out of the previous posts - Low timers should be grateful to AFAP for having an award at all & experienced pilots need to be grateful to AFAP for helping with the EBA's. That's fine, but where does that leave the experienced pilots who aren't on EBA's? I suspect, like me, they negotiated on their own & are currently being paid a lot more than the "award".
I have thought about the arguement that the increased salaries negotiated for the offshore industry has had a flow on effect to the rest of us neanderthals & I dispute this, as my work has no relation to the offshore industry, I couldn't do their job & they couldn't do mine. Offshore could shut down tomorrow & my skills will still be required by the people who pay my bills. If AFAP has made your deal better then that's great, they deserve your support. However please don't patronise those of us who are not members of an organisation which has done nothing to further our lot in life.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby Freewheel » Mon Nov 17 2008, 22:19

Ahem!

Piggy, thanks for standing up and saying it.

No award is perfect, but remember what the award is for - to provide a minimum set of standards for employers in our industry. Market forces may dictate that a person may be paid more, or their conditions may be more generous, which seems to be common in the multi-IFR market.

The single-VFR market, where most of us live, is where most of the problems with pay & conditions lie. Our emotionally based willingness to accept below award conditions because we believe that "somebody else will" is the reason there are people working for little, or even nothing. Strength in numbers is a powerful thing - it happens at every election (though in that context it's not much of a choice, but you can't eat a ballot paper any more than you can eat your log book).

So yes, I believe strongly that everybody should be a member of a body that looks after their interests - Employers the HAA, Pilots the AFAP.


Skypig - I think it a bit arrogant of you to condescend another slappers' comments on the award just because they don't agree with your ethos.


Isn't that exactly what you've subjected Skypig to?
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby Heliduck » Tue Nov 18 2008, 02:00

I would hope my post is not seen as condescending, but rather a request that the other side of a debate be respected even when you don't agree.
The debate of mass representation vs individual negotiation will always be an emotional one as most people have had their lives impacted by one or both. I stand to be convinced that mass representation has helped, but an articulate arguement in a spirit of debate as opposed to arguement may convince me that I am wrong. I'll keep reading others input with interest & see what happens.

Just a thought - I struggle with the fee structure for AFAP membership, being a percentage of salary. Should I be charged more because I negotiated a better deal with my employer than another member? Would a fixed fee be a better idea or does that open another can of worms?
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby skypig » Tue Nov 18 2008, 02:17

Heliduck

I take your point, and have publicly apologised in the past for being too vehement in my posting style. :oops:
In this case though, my reply was counter-attacking the completely negative and one eyed attacks on the Award/AFAP. These attacks both seemed to be missing the broader view and were saying the opposite thing. I stand by my insinuation that they were not contributing anything positive. :?

Your ignorance is excused – It seems lots of people think that the Awards and EBAs appear by some sort of magic. **^**

I also would like to correct some of your assertions.

I don’t think I’m holier than many people. :P

I don’t think everyone should join the AFAP – I think the AFAP has something to offer many people and the more pilots that join the more useful the AFAP will be – even to those who choose not to join. (What protection have you arranged if a medical condition prevents you earning nearly triple the award?)
I’ve been a member of the AFAP while working for less than award conditions and only very recently started at a company with an EBA.
The AFAP don’t “have” an Award, rather, they may have contributed to improving the Award.
Once you understand this, your statements; “allow the award to be so low” and “nothing more than an insult based on their experience”, are nonsensical.

There also appears to be some confusion as to what an “Award Wage” is. My understanding is, in any Australian industry, the “Award” details the minimum conditions considered acceptable for employment. Depending on the political situation and union representation the “Award” may or may not be enforced. In many industries, employers advertise “Above Award Conditions”. (No employer of experienced helicopter pilots in Australia would dream of offering a package as low as the current award.)
Employers who do not reach Award conditions could generally be classified as “Low Grade” and would have to offer something like low experience requirements or progression to attract employees in the current climate.

Many experienced pilots operating outside of “official” EBAs do, contrary to your assertions, owe something to the leaders in the industry.
I’ve seen my payments increase markedly in line with industry norms (led by EBA’s), even though I was working as a contractor.

Do you think you’d stay where you are if you could get triple in another job? Do you think you could negotiate your current “lot more than the award" if it was triple what ME IFR, EMS/Off shore pilots were being paid by the “Big boys”?

I don’t know what your special skills are but I would suggest you’d be pretty arrogant (Holier than the rest of us?) to suggest that “they couldn't do mine (job)”. When referring to the whole offshore industry. Lots of offshore pilots are hugely experienced in other facets of the industry. If “Offshore could (did) shut down tomorrow ....” Then the people who pay your bills might find a wide choice of employees.

EBA’s don’t only apply to Offshore. I’ve never landed on an oil rig.

Heliduck, I just saw your last post (I’ve learnt to check before posting something that’s taken an hour to write).

I hope this post can be taken as “an articulate arguement (argument) in a spirit of debate”. I sometimes have difficulty with “tone” in my writing. :oops:

We are all in this together – enjoy the ride. 8) 8)
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby Heliduck » Tue Nov 18 2008, 04:29

Good point about the insurance, something which I would be wise to investigate further.

My comment of "allowing" the award to be so low was taken from a reply in an earlier post, but what I would like to understand is where did the award come from? I thought it was AFAP which sat down & put pen to paper resulting in the pay figures we see, or was it someone else? Maybe questions I will direct to AFAP.

To answer your other questions, no I wouldn't stay in my current job if I could get triple somewhere else & no I couldn't negotiate to get triple what the "big boys" pay. I not sure where those questions fit in here.

I think it would make more sense to consider the 2 topics seperately - 1.The award. 2.AFAP membership.
1. From your post - "The AFAP don’t “have” an Award, rather, they may have contributed to improving the Award".
Regardless of who came up with the figures in the first place, I still stand by my statement that the salary figures for experienced pilots in the award can be considered too low, even as a minimum. I'm concerned that if the award rates are to be used as a benchmark for companies to base their salaries on then the starting point is too low, resulting in a long & arduous fight for most pilots to negotiate up to a reasonable figure.
2. I understand that representation by groups such as AFAP can be beneficial when dealing with large companies. I'm not so confident that the same representation would be welcomed by a small company when negotiating salaries. More often than not it is the owners of small companies doing the deal, & percieved interference from a representative body can sour relations between employer & employee. If I ever chose this path my fear would be that the owner/employer would say to me - "OK, you want the AFAP involved then we'll pay you the award"!! Do I have a legal leg to stand on then? Therefore if using the assistance offered by AFAP membership has the potential to be detrimental to my income where is the benefit of membership? While working for small companies should I pay membership for AFAP knowing I can't call on them for fear of damaging my relationship with the boss, while my money is used to negotiate better deals for pilots who work for large companies? Depends if I see myself working for those large companies in the future I suppose.

No doubt if offshore shut down there would be gurus looking for work everywhere, but each to their own. I'm sure I could fly MEIFR given the training & time just as they could do my work given the training & time. Arrogance aside, my point is that many of us spend years developing skills in various areas of the industry, & those skills give us bargaining power in our areas irrespective of what is happening elsewhere. For example a shortage of animal capture pilots doesn't give the offshore boys more bargaining power, nor does a shortage of offshore pilots give animal capture pilots more bargaining power. I was making the point that an AFAP assisted EBA in a large company will have little effect on my little world.

More questions than answers here, but hopefully I've clarified my thoughts rather than confused them.
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Re: Pilot pay split post, discussion thread.

Postby skypig » Tue Nov 18 2008, 09:06

Well clarified.

The insurance is probably the main reason I’ve been in the AFAP. I also figure they do more good than harm. I’ve never told any employer that I’m a member, sometimes for reasons you’ve outlined. :D

Re wages – I was just trying to make the point that to a degree, everyone’s remuneration is partially based on “norms”. In Australia, generally speaking, anything under the award conditions would be considered “temporary”, an experienced SE driver would expect A$85 – A$110K and a ME IFR Captain would receive A$100 – A$150K.

For example, the recently advertised position for an experienced A109 driver for private ops in Sydney: Even though the “Award” or current EBAs wouldn’t apply, the wage is likely to be negotiated in the $100 - $150 range because of CHC/Bristow/Jayrow EBA’s.

Have I explained my thinking here OK? :?:

Probably some useful info in these posts. I hope someone benefits. 8) 8)

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