Army pilot pay

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
Smackhawk
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Army pilot pay

Postby Smackhawk » Sat Apr 3 2010, 06:49

I was on a flight the other day when the lowest paid member was the captain of the aircraft.
3 years training, plus time on type, and still paid less than the junior aircrewman on board (a corporal).

Army recently cut its pilot pay, and is now no longer in-line with RAAF and RAN pilots (or Navs/Observers). (now I have no come back to my RAAF pilot mates when it comes to RAAF vs Army pilot debates... apart from the good old "if you can't hover.....")

A RAAF mate who was on the aircrew pay tribunal actually fought the Army's pilot pay case for them. They were told they'd have a retention issue, to which they said they'd up the ROSO... and they have.
Last edited by Smackhawk on Sat Apr 3 2010, 15:22, edited 2 times in total.
mhale71
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby mhale71 » Sat Apr 3 2010, 09:27

Well i just failed to get into the army because they changed the sitting height requirement from 100cm to 92cm, im too high at 94, While i was at FSP i met a lot of people doing the course that are my height and taller that dont have a clue what theyre gonna do when they get out of bfts. The reason for the change was apparently for years people were complaining about the Kiowa helicopter, And some people would fail subsequent courses; and to weasel out of their ROSO would complain about bad backs.
This pilot pay cut is news to me, But i honestly thaught that if i got in i wouldnt care very much about money, as most of your lifestyle is payed for you, Not to mention all the service allowances and such. It Is odd that pilots and officers seem to get paid less then enlisted personell, But there is probably a ligitimate reason for that.
I would have thaught not too many people who are in would be too concerned over the ROSO either, Yes, it'd be nice to have the option to leave, understandably, But from what i heard most that leave opt to come straight back, Something about wanting to be more then just a taxi driver.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Helical » Sat Apr 3 2010, 10:21

Ditto for me, I am 94.5cm so no longer am able to be an Army pilot. Have decided to do my CPL(H) now, just have to save up the cash.

The pay drop is news to me too, though I did notice the ROSO has increased.

Troy
slapme over and over
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby slapme over and over » Sat Apr 3 2010, 10:39

What are you hoping to achieve by posting this on here?

I think you will find that you can't have your pay reduced and if allowances have been cut it effects those behind you and not actually you. If they have ellected to cut allowances then let's see how recruitment goes. It's probably a brilliant decision designed to fight the slow throughput of Army pilots. :P
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Whoosh » Sat Apr 3 2010, 10:46

I hear at times the army is short of helo pilots and others say that it is very competitive and hard to get in. Anyone know the real story??
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Smackhawk » Sat Apr 3 2010, 11:57

slapme over and over wrote:What are you hoping to achieve by posting this on here?


Just putting it out there as info. Not out to 'achieve' anything. I just found it interesting that an aircrewman (who I found out was on the same S-70 conversion as the Captain) was paid more than him. And he'd only had about a year of training in total.

slapme over and over wrote:I think you will find that you can't have your pay reduced and if allowances have been cut it effects those behind you and not actually you.


Yes, you are right, it wont affect those in the system (although they had the choice to take up the 'new package')

slapme over and over wrote:If they have ellected to cut allowances then let's see how recruitment goes. It's probably a brilliant decision designed to fight the slow throughput of Army pilots. :P


Brilliant decision? Why, was it yours :wink: ? From what I've seen, the pilot training continuum is a shambles, and it is a classic case of the brain not talking to the hand. They just don't know how to turn the tap on or off at the right time - it's always boom or bust.

On the new height regs, unfortunately for taller guys trying to get in now, I think it is well founded. There were instances of guys complaining about being too tall for the kiowa and they ended up sending them to the Navy helo course. A lot of admin and still a training burden on Army as there was a delta between that course and the Army HTC on Kiowa. Still... plenty of tall guys got through Kiowas without any complaint, makes me think some may have thought Squirrels would be a better type to have under your belt? I don't know.

Anyway, I'm just sharing information, what I know. That's not a bad thing is it?
Mick White
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Mick White » Sat Apr 3 2010, 12:13

Thanks for sharing SmackHawk, don't worry about the forum police! I and I'm sure a lot of new pilot's are interested in your comments.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Smackhawk » Sat Apr 3 2010, 12:40

Mick White wrote:Thanks for sharing SmackHawk, don't worry about the forum police! I and I'm sure a lot of new pilot's are interested in your comments.


Thanks Mick (c:_ol
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Skywork » Sat Apr 3 2010, 22:17

Smackhawk wrote:On the new height regs, unfortunately for taller guys trying to get in now, I think it is well founded. There were instances of guys complaining about being too tall for the kiowa


Yep Lets apply to be a pilot then complain the aircraft they knew they were going to train in is to tight. What alot of Bull$hit, only in the army. There are plenty of tallllll pilots in the real world flying the same type of helicopters, Oh and 90 percent of them would have trained in R22s,. Tell them if they keep complaining they are out on there ear with nil qaulifications. How many tall people on this forum who would like to train in a Jetranger from scratch without complaining.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby slapme over and over » Sat Apr 3 2010, 22:49

Smackhawk wrote:Brilliant decision? Why, was it yours :wink: ?


Yeh it was mine you will find there are many senior Army officials that are members of this site :wink: Obviously sarcasm isn't easy to read here. Actually it was decisions like this that helped me make the decision to leave the Army.

My point is that this isn't the place to air your grievance with Army pay and conditions. You need any points you may have heard at the aircrew pay tribunal. Compared to civilian trained pilots that are already 50K+ odd out of pocket before they start you are well ahead of the game so probably won't get much sympathy here. As for the guy in the back getting paid more you have conveniently ignored any of his previous military experience which is part of why the Army is paying him, not just for his aircrew knowledge. Don't forget that a lot of them do lose rank and pay to do what they do!

The height thing is the price paid by the guys who couldn't face failure on their course and have now created a rod for everyone else's back by showcausing s#!t excuses for not passing course.

I am hardly the forum police but I suggest you take the fact that you are a BlackHawk pilot and be grateful for the opportunity. Stop whinging about pay and conditions that you have absolutely no control over in the Army until you are at Brigadier level.

I do agree that the Military training throughput is shot though and perhaps that is a better forum topic to help guys make an educated decision about training with the military or civy.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Whoosh » Sat Apr 3 2010, 23:51

So does anyone know if the Army is flush with new pilots (pilots generally) or are they looking?
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Dauphin » Sun Apr 4 2010, 01:05

Smackhawk,
Are you sure of your facts? ADF pay is set by the DFRT and is common to all 3 services. It is not possible for the Chief of the Army to "recently cut its pilot pay" as you asserted. The ADF pay scales are easy enough to find on the net and there is no distinction between Army, Navy and RAAF pilots. The new scheme to increase pay grades in accordance with competency rather than time is common to all 3 services. Your RAAF or Navy equivalent should be paid the same as you - about $65-70k (including Service Allowance) based on the info you have provided.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Apr 4 2010, 01:14

Whoosh wrote:So does anyone know if the Army is flush with new pilots (pilots generally) or are they looking?


I think you will find that all three services are chockas with pilots who have passed basic flying training but who are waiting ages for their conversion onto an operational aircraft. I doubt that the recruiting tap will be completely turned off though.

From what I can gather, the ADF isn't short of pilots, just very short of experienced pilots.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Whoosh » Sun Apr 4 2010, 01:55

Thanks Hugh Bosh....very helpful.
Cheers Whoosh
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby mhale71 » Sun Apr 4 2010, 08:40

Skywork wrote:
Smackhawk wrote:On the new height regs, unfortunately for taller guys trying to get in now, I think it is well founded. There were instances of guys complaining about being too tall for the kiowa


Yep Lets apply to be a pilot then complain the aircraft they knew they were going to train in is to tight. What alot of Bull$hit, only in the army. There are plenty of tallllll pilots in the real world flying the same type of helicopters, Oh and 90 percent of them would have trained in R22s,. Tell them if they keep complaining they are out on there ear with nil qaulifications. How many tall people on this forum who would like to train in a Jetranger from scratch without complaining.


Theyre not complaining about the helicopters, theyre complaining about bad backs and blaming it on the helicopters. This is military aviation, You cant go up in your boardies and a tshirt, you are required to wear a full flight suit, helmet and parachute, the helmets add a solid 4" to your sitting height, and a lot of taller pilots were finding they were having to tilt their heads to fit in -> instructor sees this, conciders it dangerous, then HE complains. (the instructors in the military have 10,000+ hours, they know their stuff)
The kiowa was goin to get replaced with the EC135 to accomodate the taller people, but im not sure whats happened there.
Currently at BFTS the majority of the students are pretty much split down the middle between army and air force very few navy, but navy only take a few people a year, But, people are always failing and getting kicked out.
In the civvi world if you dont get something right, theyll accomodate you until you can get it right, In military training, if you dont know something by the time youre expected to, youre in trouble. If You fail a flight, youre out, You can appeal it but if you fail it again it doesnt look good, When i was up there the other week i spoke to a few people who were in their final days. There is a huge backlog of pilots in interim postings waiting for their next training course as well.
Also, they Dont train in Jetrangers from scratch, Their first 100 hours (for army, 68 for navy) are in CT4B, which is a little piston jigger. Even the navy has them move onto the more advanced turbine PC9 before touching a helicopter.
Last edited by mhale71 on Sun Apr 4 2010, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
mhale71
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby mhale71 » Sun Apr 4 2010, 08:44

doublepost
Smackhawk
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Smackhawk » Sun Apr 4 2010, 10:20

slapme over and over wrote:
Smackhawk wrote:Brilliant decision? Why, was it yours :wink: ?


Yeh it was mine you will find there are many senior Army officials that are members of this site :wink: Obviously sarcasm isn't easy to read here. Actually it was decisions like this that helped me make the decision to leave the Army.


Wow, so there you go. We all know there are some big-wigs here and there, so no harm no foul (but I do like a laugh every now and then :wink: you need to in this line of work!)

I'm a bit confused though when you say it was decisions like this that helped you decide to leave... was it a decision you didn't want to make, or were forced to? Or was it sad to see the way things were going in Avos? I'm curious what you meant here, that's all.

I'm not after sympathy, or whinging about P&C in the Army. Was just highlighting that an aircrewman is paid more than a pilot.
slapme over and over wrote:As for the guy in the back getting paid more you have conveniently ignored any of his previous military experience which is part of why the Army is paying him, not just for his aircrew knowledge .
Wrong. Both were on the same final course (ROBC) as each other. Said corporal - 12 months training total, was put on the standard aircrewman pay upon graduating from course - (he was paid less as a cook - previous military experience I am sure that will come in handy as a loadie (that was sarcasm) ).
Straight out of training, aircrewman - $73 825 (incl service and flying disability)
Pilot, 3 years as a cadet on trainee wages, now aircraft captain on BH's - $73 482 - all inclusive
This was my observation, hearing the crew banter. I researched it further, and they are the facts. I'm not conveniently ignoring anything. If anything, I'm ignoring the fact that the pilot was on trainee wages for 3 years - married with a child and living was "pretty tight" considering the job he left.... while the aircrewman was on non-reduction allowances as a cook during his 1 yr training...... but I digress, they're all qualified now and happy... especially the aircrewman :lol:
I'm not airing my grievances - just stating an observed fact.
Dauphin wrote:Are you sure of your facts?
Yes.
Dauphin wrote:ADF pay is set by the DFRT and is common to all 3 services. It is not possible for the Chief of the Army to "recently cut its pilot pay" as you asserted. The ADF pay scales are easy enough to find on the net and there is no distinction between Army, Navy and RAAF pilots. The new scheme to increase pay grades in accordance with competency rather than time is common to all 3 services. Your RAAF or Navy equivalent should be paid the same as you - about $65-70k (including Service Allowance) based on the info you have provided.
As I said, a good friend was on the aircrew pay tribunal. He was there, I know coming from me it's hearsay, but we had a good chat about it. This has nothing to do with the new(ish) competency based pay system.. unless you are saying new Army pilots are less competent? I guess that's debatable haha.
Defence recruiting websites do not tell you the full story - when have they ever? The travelling roadshow that went around highlighted it very clearly, pilots in the Army will be the lowest paid pilots in the ADF, and not on par with the other services when it comes to pilot pay. Plus, if you read what slapme has to say, he decided on it, so I guess that's all the confirmation you should need.

So in closing, no whinges, just the facts, if there are any budding military aviators out there that want to know more than what recruiting can give them, PM me, I'd be happy to help.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Skywork » Sun Apr 4 2010, 10:57

mhale71 wrote:you are required to wear a full flight suit, helmet and parachute, the helmets add a solid 4" to your sitting height

.
Hell civi pilots wear that stuff to apart from the parachute, and believe it or not there are instructors that are not in the military that have 10,000 hrs too.
I am not getting in a pi$$ing match with military v civilian pilots but they need to harden up, all they have to do is fly the aircraft not worry about all the other things that a civi pilot has too and as for they get one chance, are you saying that a civi pilot who is struggling to pay for his licence is going to go casual and not care about giving it his all and risk having to do parts of his flying or flight test again, or are u saying the standards are higher in the military
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby slapme over and over » Sun Apr 4 2010, 11:07

SmackHawk,

You are obviously too smart for me. You've had my 5 minutes.

Goodluck with your future endeavours.
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Re: Army pilot pay

Postby Eric Hunt » Sun Apr 4 2010, 11:10

An Army pilot with 10,000 hrs? Horsefeathers. He would be ex-army (lucky to have 2000 hrs) and another 8000 in the civilian world. The army boys are lucky to get 200 hrs a year.

A helmet adds perhaps 2" to your height. You don't wear a parachute in a helicopter. A B206 has plenty of headroom, though you might bop your helmet on the door frame looking to the side.

Where the heck are you getting your info??

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