Discussion on wages

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
Ray McCooney
2nd Dan
2nd Dan
Posts: 386
Joined: Dec 2005

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Ray McCooney » Mon Jan 25 2010, 22:54

Low Time and BP just because most people started on crap pay does not mean it should continue.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I do believe in a fair days pay for a fair days work, regardless of how many hours you have.
Skywork
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 179
Joined: Dec 2007

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Skywork » Mon Jan 25 2010, 23:13

Low Time wrote:Will you know how to take a booking? Will you know how to organize and give an accurate quote? Can you organize gift certificates? Can you properly brief your passengers in accordance with your companies OP’s manual?

Does a newly qaulified dentist know where all the supplies are in the in the building on his first day, can he do a root canal on his own or even tell a new customer how long he will need for his appointment and cost, No dont think so, He is mentored by the owner but he still starts on 60k
Low time and BD it is scarey that you may one day not only just be a pilot but you maybe running or owning a heli business and I can see the cycle of not paying the award carrying on
If you do not pay the award and you get taken to the cleaners you deserve it, and the altitude sucks if you think that you got shafted and worked for nothing so others should, why not think that other people should not have to go through what I did and help make change.

CYHELI after 3 months training as a police officer did you get paid the award even though you would not be let on the on the beat on your own and I would say you would have a experienced officer with you and if they had paid below the award in comparision to aviation would you have done it. Would like your prospective and not accusing you off backing underpaid pilots and is there any one else out there that would work in a mine being under paid because it is the first time you have driven a dumper and have a lot to learn.

My response is from a business owners view operating helicopters not just because I am a pilot
User avatar
CYHeli
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1825
Joined: Jun 2006

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby CYHeli » Mon Jan 25 2010, 23:26

Sorry you missed my post Skywork. If yo look back through the threads you will see that I have championed the cause for award wages for ever and took it loud and long to the HAA and others over the years. I have been told that is why I am not working full time, noone will touch me because they see me as a s#!t stirrer.
I was just saying that I understood where some operators are coming from, but that never justifies underpaying.
I was asking a few rhetorical questions, that's all.
Thanks again and it's good to hear of companies doing the right thing, the same as they expect from their staff.
CYHeli (are better than planes!) LOL
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
Chicken Hawk
New Member
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Jan 2010

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Chicken Hawk » Mon Jan 25 2010, 23:34

The way I have read things is that Pegasus is wanting to get into the Mustering side of things(correct me if Im wrong). So my thoughts are that why does he need to know how to take bookings, make quotes, do smooth transfers of international passengers and all the other things Low time has rattled off. If he finds him self working for a reputable company chances are that he probably wont see the inside of the office or the hangar unless he is in for a 100hrly. 17k may be alright if its a tourist job or something similar where you find that you may only fly 4 or 500 hours a year. However alot of these busy mustering companies are flying their pilots the maximum of their flight and duty times. And being a green pilot he would be no exception, finding himself getting most of the fairying jobs taking freshly serviced machines back out to pilots on the job. As far as gaining experience goes as long as he has cattle experience it may only take 100 - 200 hrs before he is flying solo again. Alot of fresh pilots get sent on mustering jobs that are two ups. Where there is an experienced pilot in one machine and a less experienced in the another. The greener pilot takes the easy runs and sits back while the senior pilot does the more intense flying, like yarding up etc. so before you know it the green pilot has got 8 - 900hrs and cabable of doing a reasonable job and the first year of flying is only 2/3rds of the way through, so to come back for a second year with maybe 1200hrs for 22k is a little bit unacceptable (in my view). If down the track he wishes to work in tourism or other form of charter he will have enough flight time to do smooth international passenger transfers and with a bit of common sense pick up the rest as he goes. :D
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 25 2010, 23:42

Skywork wrote:
Low Time wrote:Will you know how to take a booking? Will you know how to organize and give an accurate quote? Can you organize gift certificates? Can you properly brief your passengers in accordance with your companies OP’s manual?

Does a newly qaulified dentist know where all the supplies are in the in the building on his first day, can he do a root canal on his own or even tell a new customer how long he will need for his appointment and cost, No dont think so, He is mentored by the owner but he still starts on 60k
Low time and BD it is scarey that you may one day not only just be a pilot but you maybe running or owning a heli business and I can see the cycle of not paying the award carrying on
If you do not pay the award and you get taken to the cleaners you deserve it, and the altitude sucks if you think that you got shafted and worked for nothing so others should, why not think that other people should not have to go through what I did and help make change.

CYHELI after 3 months training as a police officer did you get paid the award even though you would not be let on the on the beat on your own and I would say you would have a experienced officer with you and if they had paid below the award in comparision to aviation would you have done it. Would like your prospective and not accusing you off backing underpaid pilots and is there any one else out there that would work in a mine being under paid because it is the first time you have driven a dumper and have a lot to learn.

My response is from a business owners view operating helicopters not just because I am a pilot


Skywork and Ray,
thanks, this thread has become more about me personaly then answering my general questions, before I did this hole any deeper I would like to post a more general question for comment and see if I can get a less directed at me and more truthful wider outlook on the industry. Hopefully not all operators have the same outlook as some of the ones on here, and SKywork I agree with you completly. Fair pay for fair days work, every new employee in any field knew stuff all about his first job when he started, most still got paid award though.

Chicken Hawk, thanks also, I was wondering the same thing reading lowtimes post, however no doubt all useful stuff to learn if I ever did want to fly tourists, the cows they really don't care how rough I fly, the boss might though LOL, that is a very fair outlook on what I thought it would be like, thanks for that, that is the sort of info I wanted to know. :D I think 1200 hrs is max duty in the mustering world? so you would think I'd be fairly useful or out the bush gate by then wouldn't you?

***********************QUESTION***********************
I would like to know what wages and conditions are like for new pilots in their first year or two on the job, by conditions I mean that if your employer pays less than award say 30K a year is this made up by subsidised accomodation etc? Good or bad, employee or employer this is what i want to know, and have been trying to find out over the last 6 pages. Prefer mustering world but it will be interesting to compare rates across the industry.
thanks in advance
Pegs
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.
User avatar
Izzy Fullashat
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 116
Joined: Dec 2007

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Izzy Fullashat » Tue Jan 26 2010, 00:08

I've just checked out the new award 2010:
Minimum salary per annum
$
Single engine
1st year of service
41,332
2nd year of service
42,332
3rd year of service
43,288
4th year of service
44,228
5th year of service
45,228
6th year of service
46,228
7th year of service
47,228
8th year of service
48,228
9th year of service
49,228


Old Award dated As at 1/10/08:

SINGLE ENGINE
1st year of service $43,880

WTF thats a decrease of $2548/year. Oc:=

Izzy (NOT HAPPY JAN)
OHH!!! CRAP I still cant come up with a catchy saying!!!!!!!
User avatar
Low Time
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 170
Joined: Mar 2006

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Low Time » Tue Jan 26 2010, 00:18

Ray & Skywork, I am not condoning how some operators don't pay their pilots properly. My intention is to give Pegasus some real life scenarios. Yes i know he is aiming for cattle mustering and I don't know how that work is done as I have never done it. My point is that we get out licenses but then we have to go out and learn. Hard part about learning is we all make mistakes. The CP or owner has to weigh up the risk that a newbie pilot may or may not damage their machine, get themselves into a situation that they are unable to recover from, things like that. Most new pilots start in the tourism scene and the things i have outlined are things I had to learn.

Skywork your point about the dentist is well and true spot on, same as being a member of the Police Force. Unfortunately in our industry the continued exploitation of new pilots continues. There will always be someone who will take less $$ or less conditions or whatever to get where they want to go. How do we solve this? CYHeli has always spoken out for the award for new pilots, I should know I have worked with him.

Another point that needs to be considered is some of the smaller operators are on a very tight profit margin. So to keep operating and to give low time pilots a start they offer below the award. I suppose you can argue that they should pay ALL there pilots properly, but if they did that, you would find these companies have a much smaller number of fulltime better paid pilots, no part timers and no casuals.

There is no easy fix for this, and with the tough financial times we are experiencing i don’t see a end to it anytime soon. I can only speak from and about my experiences.
The Voices Are Back: 'Excellent!!'
User avatar
Islandheli
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 150
Joined: Mar 2006

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Islandheli » Tue Jan 26 2010, 03:13

Hi All,
Happy Australia Day.

Pegasus,
Just so you understand something about the heli award.
If an employer takes on a newbie with 105 hrs, they get the award $41k, plus every year they stay they get an extra $1k.
If that same employer only takes on pilots with 500/1000 hours (plenty of them around), they still only have to pay the award of $41k
As people like Low Time have said, at 105 hrs you are just starting to learn.
It has been said may times before on this forum, but maybe we need to have a lower starting salary built into the award, so that you know what you will start on.
I think that you and others who are just starting out, may find it very difficult to find positions if smaller companies stoped giving newbies a chance if they are forced to pay you the award.

Skywork, a new dentist has done a 5 year dental degree, not really the same.

PS - only my opion, but I got into this because I wanted to fly helicopters and tell chicks that I am a heli pilot (and get laid), now I'm nearly married and spend most of the day behind a computer, but still get to fly most day's and truly believe that I have the best job in the world. Don't come into the game for the money, I used to drive a truck delivering paper whilst doing my licence, I earned more back then than probably 80% of helicopter pilots in Australia do now.

Anyway, this debate will go for some time, so I wish you all luck.
Skywork
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 179
Joined: Dec 2007

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Skywork » Tue Jan 26 2010, 03:40

Low Time wrote:Skywork your point about the dentist is well and true spot on, same as being a member of the Police Force. Unfortunately in our industry the continued exploitation of new pilots continues. There will always be someone who will take less $$ or less conditions or whatever to get where they want to go. How do we solve this?


Low time it will not happen over night but the industry needs to say no to people who offer to work for free and people like yourself , or any one who gets in a position needs to start stepping up and paying what they think is appropiate or at least the award and slowly one by one the industry may take a look at the none payers who will still get pilots that are prepared to work for nothing but will they be getting the good ones . This issue will never fix itself over night but we as a industry we need to start some where
CYHELI my last post had nothing to do with your previous posts but the reason I used you as a example is you have come from a industry that has awards, people now your history before flying and hopefully people can relate to your cause and situation and what you have tried to do. I to like you had a family when I went flying and was not in a position to fly for low wages, I also was like pegasus and had a business where I was earning good money and and treated flying as a business, My next Question is I have a broken down Bulldozer that needs a driver is there anyone who will drive it for 17k a year, dont think so, so why will the fly a 30 year old B47 that has been on mustering all its life with a marginal maintenace history for free.
I am all for fair day pay for a fair days work and I hate unions( probably because my whole life I was a contractor) but lets respect the next round of pilots and give them a fair deal and conditions and put back a little to a industry that looks after us.
Skywork
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 179
Joined: Dec 2007

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Skywork » Tue Jan 26 2010, 03:46

[quote="Islandheli"]Skywork, a new dentist has done a 5 year dental degree, not really the same.[/quot

It is exactly the same, They have only learnt enough to get them out there and to get a job and they are supervised and they only start on the basic teeth care, like a pilot on basic flying duties, they need supervision on more complicated and advance techniques just like a pilot.
User avatar
Baby Back Ribs
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 41
Joined: May 2008

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Baby Back Ribs » Tue Jan 26 2010, 04:19

This topic has been flogged like a angry wilderbeast, time to move on!
User avatar
CYHeli
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1825
Joined: Jun 2006

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby CYHeli » Tue Jan 26 2010, 09:23

I think the funniest thing about comparing flying with other trades - especially uni qual's, is the fact that the pass mark is often 70 - 80%. What about teh 20 - 30% that they don't know?? :shock:
At least pilots have to re-hash where they went wrong in their written tests at the flight test.

But it all comes back to the magic three; experience, risk and the award.
Paying the award does not impart wisdom or experience, nor does it lower the risk. But neither does underpaying!
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
harold
1st Dan
1st Dan
Posts: 286
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby harold » Tue Jan 26 2010, 22:59

Pegasus, let me put all the posts into precise form for you!

Either accept the lower pay whilst you're a 105 hour pilot or don't! Simple really!
If you stand on your digs and expect/demand the award; then I suggest it will be a long time before you're employed as a pilot in any capacity!
Cold hard facts - nobody said the first few years were going to be easy! You're only treading ground that (most) of us have walked before!
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Tue Jan 26 2010, 23:23

harold wrote:Pegasus, therein lies the problem. The company is offering $17K per anum and you knock the job back seeking more $'s (quite reasonably too) but there are another 10 pilots behind you willing to lap the job up....there's probably even a couple that would be willing to 'pay' $10 an hour for the privilege!
The problem does not necessarily lie with the operator offering so little; the problem lies with the pilots so willing to accept so little! This problem of underpaying would disappear the moment EVERY BOGGY PILOT put their hand up for a fair days pay - let's face it; most of us have spent thousands upon thousands getting that illusive CPL and we have every right to expect a return on our investment! It'll never happen but every new pilot should be saying; "Pay me properly or 'f' off"! Unfortunately, we only have the power when we have some better ammo in our bag of tricks; like IFR, LONG LINE HOURS, FIRE EXPERIENCE etc....until then, I guess the circle just continues on and on and on!


ok and now several pages later Harold says :wink:

Pegasus, let me put all the posts into precise form for you!

Either accept the lower pay whilst you're a 105 hour pilot or don't! Simple really!
If you stand on your digs and expect/demand the award; then I suggest it will be a long time before you're employed as a pilot in any capacity!
Cold hard facts - nobody said the first few years were going to be easy! You're only treading ground that (most) of us have walked before!


Make up your mind fella!!! Also I might point out that I didn't say i wouldn't fly for below award, I said I wouldn't fly for 17K, I also said I thought I was WORTH the award, doesn't mean I think I'm going to get it though, (would be nice I will admit). Anyway thanks Harold, not sure that every company out there pays below award, but if you read my question above (I have highlighted it below just for you) you will see that is exactly what I have been trying to find out, so you can give up directing comments at me personally is you don't mind and just answer the question? Thanks 8)

I would like to know what wages and conditions are like for new pilots in their first year or two on the job, by conditions I mean that if your employer pays less than award say 30K a year is this made up by subsidised accomodation etc? Good or bad, employee or employer this is what i want to know, and have been trying to find out over the last 6 pages. Prefer mustering world but it will be interesting to compare rates across the industry.
thanks in advance
Pegs

:cool_dc:

play nice now.
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.
Jinkai
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 57
Joined: Oct 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Jinkai » Wed Jan 27 2010, 07:56

Pegasus

You are right but unfortunately I don't think you can win here and now that the Aus$ is strong compared with US$ and likely to stay that way you and every other Aus pilot will face increased competition from overseas Aus pilots that are paid in US$ returning (now they have a 30% pay cut) and overseas trained pilots looking to get in to what now is a more attractive Aus$ pay compared to home.

Maybe this should be a whole new topic.

Catch ya
User avatar
HFTB
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 23
Joined: Feb 2010

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby HFTB » Wed Feb 17 2010, 10:34

Hi All,

To clarify my position, i am nothing more than a wannabe pilot, hold a ARN and C1 Medical, and my TIF booked for sunday.

I work in finance, i smash out spreadsheets and get yelled at by traders shifting a few hunji mil daily.
I have a bachelors in economics, bachelors in finance and masters in accounting. I spent over 50k at uni (6 years full time) I earn 65k - usually 12 hour days.
I really hate finance, i hate spreadsheets, and most of all i hate looking out the window and seeing pilots live the dream why i sit inside my cube farm.

So......
I got all excited and thought i'd fulfil the childhood dream. However, reading the last 6 pages opened my eyes to the coin offered to pilots.
I called in sick last week and did a lot of investigation into what school i'd choose. One of these gave me a pdf which outlined pay ranges.

Below is the link..... does anyone agree with these figures?

http://uploading.com/files/3671e3a9/Wha ... %2BV1.pdf/


I see there is lots of debate about what someone is worth when they start out. Covering rent and food seems to be a dream hey????
I'm not going to bother entering debate too much here..... award wage would be sweet, but, i hate finance and would gladly cop 17 on the chin to get hours.
I take a stab in the dark and assume we're all here because we want to fly, as opposed to something else.
Even the bogan ferry driver in sydney with grade 10 pass gets paid a quick 120k.

Any comments, slander, tips or suggestions welcome.
funhouse
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 70
Joined: Feb 2010

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby funhouse » Wed Feb 17 2010, 11:53

What is there to discus.
Industrial relations provide employee benifits and terms on their website. If an employer wants to pay less, then I guess they want to pray that there employees don't give IR a call.
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Wed Feb 17 2010, 12:00

Hi HFTB,

as funhouse said, i think its all been said already. at the end of the day its up to u, no one else but u an make the choice as to whether you will fly for less than award. Good luck with your choice.
:cool_dc:
Last edited by Pegs on Wed Feb 17 2010, 12:27, edited 2 times in total.
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.
User avatar
black duck
Capt Poppet
Capt Poppet
Posts: 734
Joined: Oct 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby black duck » Wed Feb 17 2010, 12:13

This thread comes under the category of cruel and unusual punishment! :x
"It's wabbit seathon! It' duck seathon! I dare you to shoot me now!"
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Wed Feb 17 2010, 12:20

black duck wrote:This thread comes under the category of cruel and unusual punishment! :x



I totally agree Black Duck! :wink:
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.

Return to “Pay”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests