AWA`s not good news.

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
six-three Bravo
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 128
Joined: Jan 2007

Postby six-three Bravo » Tue Feb 6 2007, 02:37

Great to see everybody has calmed down.

I will take the advice of my senior brothers and accept the system but sometimes it is good to rattle the cage to stimulate debate.

Thanks!

Cheers

six - three bravo
User avatar
Eric Hunt
3rd Dan
3rd Dan
Posts: 914
Joined: Sep 2006

Postby Eric Hunt » Tue Feb 6 2007, 04:38

Six Three Bravo, Zero Alpha, fetch Sunray, over!


You rattle the cage, you gotta be prepared for us grumpy old baboons to snap at your fingers!

All good fun.

Shot, out.
Drumpump
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 56
Joined: Dec 2006

Postby Drumpump » Tue Feb 6 2007, 06:57

I'm driving a medium on the fires and have conducted a little on the job training for guys up and coming out of observation and air attack rolls to bombing, which I think is a great thing, But if someone thinks the industry owes them the right seat in my helicopter because they have a CPL there wrong.
Sorry to be so blunt but that's how I feel.
six-three Bravo
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 128
Joined: Jan 2007

Postby six-three Bravo » Tue Feb 6 2007, 21:00

The industry owes nobody anything. However there may be some ways of tackling the shortage of high time pilots, for such things as fire work and at the same time addressing the surplus of pilots under 1500 hrs which results in better trained, and prepared pilots for the demanding more missions.

The fact is that there are some operators out there who take advantage of low time pilots burning passion to get some flying and a start in the industry.

I believe it is unacceptable for anyone to work 50+ hours a week and only get paid $300 or in some cases less a week. Some call this doing the hard yards, some may call this exploitation.

That is why in this country we have minimum award wages which was the original point of the whole argument.

A fair day pay for a fair day work, is the Australian way. However in the first few years of one's helicopter career this appears not be to the norm. All I'm saying is surely there is a better and more professional way. Once again just a thought.


Cheers


six - three bravo out!
Drumpump
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 56
Joined: Dec 2006

Postby Drumpump » Wed Feb 7 2007, 02:38

Some pay just enough to keep their men and some work just enough to keep their jobs. A sad fact of life.

But, the helicopter industry for pilots is as healthy as it has ever been. There is quite a shortage of experienced guys out there and there is a flow on effect for all experience levels. Some companies are starting to pay good money for good people and low timers will get there turn - don't forget you chose the industry, it didn't choose you.
The pilot shortage is a good thing. It means better pay and conditions for all pilot's. The people who need to be pulled into line are the people who fly around for nothing. How are low timers supposed to get better pay and conditions when this is happening? There was a topic on this some time ago with a few differing opinions, but people flying for nothing is a large part of the problem for bad conditions and low pay, if any.
Keep your chin up.
User avatar
CYHeli
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1825
Joined: Jun 2006

Postby CYHeli » Wed Feb 7 2007, 05:44

The only reason that people fly for free is that this is expected of them.
Where does a low hour pilot draw the line? If they complain about the lack of pay, they get told to 'Harden up, that's the way it is.' The boss says that he is not a charity. But neither is the pilot.
The best idea that I have heard of is that the 'worker' gets paid for doing the hangar rat stuff, as a basic labourer, works in the office as a basic phone answerer, booking clerk, etc and gets the flying for free. He/she has no experience and costs the company money to teach him/her how to be a real pilot (How to fly a 6 minute joy flight in 6 minutes, not 7 or 8). They hang around the hangar and get other aviation style experience.
The 'worker' is then paid for his labour/time and the flying is a bonus.
You would not expect any other industry to act like this, no industry owes it's workers anything except respect and fairness. Yes, pilots chose aviation, but where else do workers get exploited like this?
There is a trade off b/n paying staff real money and pricing yourself out of a job, but if there is work to be done, then pay for it.
six-three Bravo
Gold Wings
Gold Wings
Posts: 128
Joined: Jan 2007

Postby six-three Bravo » Wed Feb 7 2007, 21:08

Bravo , Bravo, Bravo to CYIheli. At last some sanity to the argument.


Well said, old man.

Cheers


six - three bravo
User avatar
skypig
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1705
Joined: Nov 2005

Postby skypig » Wed Feb 7 2007, 21:43

Supply and demand :!:

I think the current shortage of experienced pilots will have a positive effect on the conditions for pilots at the early stages of their career.


Advice – easy to give hard to take. :!:

Two circumstances you should leave you current aviation position:-

1 You have a better position to go to. (probably because of the experience you have gained while being exploited :wink: )

2 If you stay any longer you will become bitter (and probably murder someone :? )


Skypig 8) 8)

“flying for fun and profit”
marchvey
New Member
New Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Mar 2012

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby marchvey » Thu Mar 15 2012, 09:14

This would be more legitimate than my original post seems to indicate. Nothing career-damaging about it.






------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian McMinn
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 2012

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Ian McMinn » Thu Mar 15 2012, 11:42

Where the hell do I start with this one. Watch the angry little buggars come out of the woodwork.

Here are the facts, It is this way and no other way. It is not up to interpretation because we are working in the real world here with real financial constraints and consequences.

A few here know me and my old operation. I started a company on a ten grant credit card and ended up with 16 pilots working for me. I must have fallen out of a tree and landed on my feet.

I thought I was doing a great job with these young fellas that now have some of the best jobs in AU and my saying was always "I'm building a company, you're building a career". Win/Win situation I thought.

Lets have a look at how a few WIN/WIN situations worked for us both. It will take a while.

One fella had 121 hrs TT and I spent 42 hrs flying with him ICUS to get him safe enough to do the most basic work in an EC120 with all the fruit including TCAD. A hand shake still means something to me and I have never insulted a pilot by getting them to sign a contract. The deal was 1500hrs or three years. The fella fly's about 680-700 odd hours for the year and comes to me and says I'm going to Jayrow to fly a S76 will you come to my piss up. I say, I hope you go well, I've only tried to teach you basic flying but to do it solid, however, if you think I'm coming to your piss up you can jam it because my handshake still means something to me.

The guy gets sick, so sick he doesn't work one day of his two weeks notice(but I have to pay him) he was ok to come down on the Wednesday night of the second week and get so pissed that he couldn't stop the other fells from writing on his face. One of the good fellas must have thought he was taking the p*ss because I found the photos on my laptop screen saver when I arrived at work the next morning. Feel free to put your hand up and have a go if you like(I still have the photos), I hear what you say behind my back.

Another guy finished his license and then didn't fly for about 3 odd years, I gave him a job because he was so keen and I had a saying that "we employ people and then turn them into pilots if nesessary". My CP at the time (who is on here) had to spend a lot of time on him to get him going in a B206, the fella worked for me for 6 years, then 31/2 years later comes to my surprise 40th and then around home the next day for a coffee while the kids play. 9 days later sues me for backpay and refuses to do mediation, won't meet me face to face for any reason. The WO through it out and then he keeps trying to get me through other avenues(feel free to have another go, you won't win faceless one).

Great fun this give 50 odd green pilots a go in turbine aircraft. I could give you 15 stories like this and I am the first to admit that I employed some of the best fellas a man could meet and I'm so proud to have worked with a heap of them. Have a think about it, I had so much work that I could have put almost any aircraft I choose there and maybe made a million or so a year and flew when I felt like it.

Instead I sold tickets did the crap CP work (taught others how to be a CP) in the office loaded while they "built a career and I built a business". I don't want to sound hard done by, I just won't ever give a young lad a go ever again, I couldn't be stuffed with it. An ex-base manager asked me the other day what it was like working for someone, I said great, you don't have to wash the toilets. Don't try leading by example with the Y Gen, they will make a coffee and then watch you work.

I ran eight aircraft 1xAS350, 3xEC120B, 4xR44. I x-hired the EC120B to a mate who had never ran an helicopter before and one of my ex-pilots flew for him. He got the insurance $12,000 per annum less than me because he didn't have green pilots.

This is the reality, you don't leave flight school with enough talent or experience to even get yourself into the crap, let alone out of it. you wan't to be a co-pilot (thats not really required) just because you want to, christ get dad to buy you one. You want it to be all military (whats a collective clock) well go ask the Ranga to buy you one, but don't get in the way of her efforts to stuff our country.

If green pilots can't get the award and experienced one's won't work for under 3 times the award, what is this telling you.

It's like grey hair, you don't have any say in it, get on with the job. If you're any good, it will take maybe 31/2 years to go from green to experienced.

If you think it's hard now, try getting a crack in the 90's, one out of ten got a flying gig, s#!t now it ain't even hard.

My boy is 41/2 and ape cr*p about choppers, but I would put him with Pigsy, HIP, or any of the other hard bum b*stards on here before I would help him up.

Christ, I'm 4000km from him now and don't get to fly in/fly out to see him or my girls.

If you feel you have a gripe and wan't to put your real name, then please feel free to do so, however, if I did honour my deal with you and you did get what I promised, how about you show the same respect and admit that you were able to gain the stepping stone that you needed, because it wasn't exactly beer and skittles for me either getting cr*pped on by every second pr*ck in the industry.

Ian
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Pegs » Thu Mar 15 2012, 13:08

you guys do realize this thread is from 2007 right? I think the guy that 'resurrected' it is a scammer, his other two posts certainly were, something about wedding dresses.... that ought to scare most pilots off.
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.
Ian McMinn
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 2012

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Ian McMinn » Thu Mar 15 2012, 16:08

I didn't realise that actually, but hell, it still felt great to have a spray.

The information is still relevant, I might work for the young fella having the original dig. If he got up it and had a real go.

Ian
bl@ckers
2nd Dan
2nd Dan
Posts: 316
Joined: Dec 2008

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby bl@ckers » Thu Mar 15 2012, 20:40

Great post Ian,

I have spoken with you about those very incidents in the past and can sympathise with you for being in that situation. However, there is always two sides to every argument and I, unfortunately, have been on the other side.

I was the manager of a successful helicopter company in Tasmania prior to gaining my licence. It was always my intention to gain my licence and do some flying operations when I completed it, which I was also promised. In my role as the manager I turned the business around, improved systems, built good relationships, and built a strong culture, all of these things were missing prior to me starting. I held up to my end of the bargain. However, when I completed my licece I was informed that I was useless, an accident waiting to happen and the operator was "not interested in my flying". I was checked out by one of our most senior pilots, with more hours than the owner, who said that I flew well for the amount of hours I have. However, still not good enough.

I was forced to fly for a scenic operator on weekends to try and get some hours, whcih was excellent. I flew with the owner and chief pilot, both said I flew well. All the while the owner of the other business was telling other operators that he was "going to milk me for all that I was worth and f#*k me off", which he proceeded to do late last year. I implemented a quality system, made the admin functions 50% more efficient and revised the DAMP, which received feedback from CASA as being the most thorough and compliant they had audited!

I now have almost 250 hours and have not flown with the previous operator for over 100 hours and he is still, for whatever reason, determined to undermine my chances to make a go of it. I have been told that he has said recently I was over confident and an accident waiting to happen. Now I do not profess to be the best pilot going around. However, I feel that I am safe for the hours I have. I have a family and I fly to come home each night and I am determined to look after the aircraft and fly smoothly.

In addition, I still maintain excellent relationships with the people I worked with at my previous position, who have told me the owner still, for whatever reason, criticizes me at every opportunity.

I can apprecaiate that low time pilots can take advantage of good willed operators, but operators can also take advantage of god willed low time pilots.

Cheers
Nathan Blackberry
User avatar
Pegs
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1324
Joined: Dec 2009

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Pegs » Thu Mar 15 2012, 20:50

aside from the thread being a bit out of date, I'd like to say 'thanks' to Ian for the post above, it is a rarely seen 'other' side to the wages debate that pops up every so often on BS and is an ongoing problem to employers and employees in the industry. Thanks for sharing the employer's side the story Ian, as with any debate, it is always more healthy if there are two sides. I thought the thread (compared to others) remained very civil, and informative. What still isn't clear is what the answer is, employers can't afford the time or money spent on a new pilot to make them useful (6 months min usually) if they pay them award pilot wages to clean hangers, make coffee and wash choppers (none of this makes the employer money), and pilots can't afford in most cases, to work for less than 35 K a year full time straight off a license. The exception is if they are out bush, and food and keep is provided. This problem has been going on as long as there have been people wanting to fly, and someone else owning the aircraft, it is a complex problem that requires a great amount of insight to address, and one (in my opinion) that needs addressing so that both parties get a fairer deal. It would be a subject for a helicopter Assoc to address and put out to the aviation community for feed back and ideas on improving I would have thought.
cheers
Pegs
A good idea needs landing gear as well as wings to get off the ground.
Ian McMinn
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 2012

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Ian McMinn » Thu Mar 15 2012, 21:38

Hey Pegs,

The facts are the facts, we all know the problems with green pilots needing more time before they're ready to take the world on.

I just can't understand how you could agree to a deal, shake a mans hand and then be s#!t when you get what your agreement stated.

Hey Blockers,

I did some work with one of those pilots a little while ago, very very impressive operator and guy.

Send a pm with where your at young fella, you were definitely very impressive with your office role, when I was dealing with you.

I would be stoked if the Gov would come up with a sponsorship/traineeship deal for the young fellas, it is needed, if we are to keep the seats filled on the harder work.

Ian
User avatar
papillons
1st Dan
1st Dan
Posts: 287
Joined: Jan 2011

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby papillons » Thu Mar 15 2012, 23:39

Ian, terrific posts, thanks, gets to the heart of one of most thorny problems the industry has: balancing the needs of margin-thin employers and green pilots desperate to get a career started. I have close to zero industry experience (ex military), so Slappers will have to take my ideas with a massive dose of salt, but this is an area I am really interested in. One thing I would suggest: FFS don't let government anywhere near it!

To me this is an area crying out for an active AHIA. One of the main roles of any professional association - as opposed to a union - is solving industry problems like this without resort to cumbersome external legislation. Usually it involves wielding a kind of quasi-legal authority to police its own members: So, for example, the Bar can have shoddy lawyers disbarred; the AMA can strip doctors of the right to practice, and so on. It's a mutually-embraced industry system of self-governance.

I see this kind of problem as a key role for an AHIA. The 'lever' is membership, both for employers and employees, and that lever would be applied to give Ian's (vastly preferable) traditional handshake agreement a degree of bite. The AHIA might for example decide that, as a benchmark, the kind of numbers Ian cited - 3 years/1500 hours - is a fair quid pro quo for a newby. So, if the newby walked ahead of time, Ian could take a case to the AHIA to have not only the bloke's membership stripped, but maybe even also the poaching operator.

It would take time to evolve a well-established, fair and transparent set of such benchmarks - basically, industry practical guidelines for what is 'done' and 'not done', in the interests of the collective long term good - but at the end of the day, it's up to us to strike and police our own sustainable standards. You get a wide ranging panel of guys of the stature of Rob Rich adjudicating the trickier cases and I reckon with time and collective good faith from AOC holders, you could an Association to a point where the risk of losing the 'imprimatur' of membership, as either an employer OR an aspiring newby, could carry real clout.

It works with Equity cards for actors no less than Chartered status for accountants. To have 'AHIA membership' ought become as de-facto necessary to functioning in the professional helo world as a license or a medical.

It's only in this way, Ian, that I reckon the good guys willing to bust a gut to give young guys a go will be able to 'safeguard their investment'...AND stop competitors doing the dirty and poaching the bloke you've sunk a small fortune into making employable further up the chain.
¡Librame!
User avatar
hand in pants
4th Dan
4th Dan
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sep 2006

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby hand in pants » Fri Mar 16 2012, 05:38

Papy, very good post. Very good ideas. Would be good to see something like the AHIA step into the roll. Way more preferable than involving the government or casa.

I have put my opinion on this site about low hour pilots a number of times. I won't go to the trouble again.
(Yes I know I was one once and I'm still not as high a time pilot as I'd like to end up).

I still think that the "hanger slave" (for lack of a better term) is a good form of mentoring. A low hour bloke will learn a hell of a lot in the hanger helping engineers and doing the maintenance flights and ferries. This should be the normal entry system for low hour blokes. The problem is they want to be paid more than they are worth. Unfortunately, this is difficult to fix and find the money needed to pay them a good wage because a lot of operators are working on thin margins therefore don't have the money left over. If hourly rates were closer to what they should be you could afford to pay the slave okay money while he is learning the ropes. He would then hang around long enough to learn and be moved up the chain to doing the real work we do and getting paid more because they start to earn the company money.

Having siad that, Ian, I'm afraid I'm with you, I wouldn't touch a low hour pilot with someone else. Not worth the trouble.
Check you're PM's got a loverly story about low hour pilots I'll pass on..............
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
onedayapilot
New Member
New Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 2007

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby onedayapilot » Fri Mar 16 2012, 07:29

Here is some food for thought.

I operate a Registered Training Organisation now while I dream of being a pilot.

Why not setup an apprenticeship? Similar to chefs, fitters , elecos etc. The training for any one of these "trades" costs approx $10k per year (or more if the employer is looking after the apprentice) over 3 to 4 years - contracted for this time. In return the apprentice works full time (apart from the training) with the host employer doing trade based work as well as other things.

The apprentice works for a low wage in return for the employer paying for the training . The training would have to include nationally recognized course such as c3 aviation. There are huge amounts of government funding available to employers who have apprentices. Especially for skills classified as critically short - ie there is a large demand for skilled people and sourcing them overseas.

To me this would solve the experience issue as the apprentice is onsite full time and should be paired with experienced trades - a perfect mentoring opportunity.

My experience is it would take a group from the industry to put a case to the government for the subsidized training and reduced wages. Perhaps this should be lead by some of the larger companies.

Finally - I think all of this is achievable - particularly when there are funding opportunities made available to the mining industry for a similar scheme.

"one day"
choppermech1986
1st Dan
1st Dan
Posts: 285
Joined: Sep 2007

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby choppermech1986 » Fri Mar 16 2012, 08:54

I hate to be such a negative Nancy, but I fail to see how any of these industry changing proposals could be beneficial for anyone but one generation of low hour pilots.

You don't have apprenticeships for truck and bus drivers, drillers, geologists, doctors or nurses, they all seem to do pretty well.

These jobs are all supply and demand, the fewer truck drivers and doctors getting around, the more companies will have to pay if they want to employ one.

You can also leave your apprenticeship if you feel like you aren't getting what you deserve, it's not as though you're married just because you're indentured.

The world has an uncanny way of working out an equilibrium, it would be wonderful if any high-school kid could pay his $70k to get his CPL and land a well paid job flying helicopters for a boss who treats him well, but it doesn't take a genius to work out why that wouldn't work.

The unemployment rate is just a little over 5%, if you don't like the way your boss treats you, grow some balls and ask to be paid/treated what you believe you're worth, if he thinks he already is, then at least you've got a better than 95% chance of getting another job. :too_cool:

Lastly, for any of you left leaning socialists to whom the above situation applies, you might want to consider if its not your attitude that's holding you back, not the industry.
Ian McMinn
Silver Wings
Silver Wings
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 2012

Re: AWA`s not good news.

Postby Ian McMinn » Fri Mar 16 2012, 11:56

Hey Guy's,

I can't remember who said it but if we did black ban the employers that took the fellas early, we would have black banned the top maybe 5 companies in Au.

I don't blame them and to a certain degree(other than the disrespect you feel when your handshake is s#!t on) I don't blade the lads, however, the facts are the facts.

The guy with 121 hrs, could he have gone near a S76 straight from flight school? I wouldn't imagine so. He was so scared of VRS (I had trouble getting him comfortable) that I ended up taking him to 1500' and putting the aircraft in about a 2500' per min rate of decent and showed him how to settle it all down in the last 120 metres of the approach to break his fear. Once experienced you know(unless downwind) that it's only the last part that must be on the money.

This training cost me about $800 per hr just for the machine and I didn't really want to be there. Anybody that knows me understands that me opinion was that I can't afford to get around in a chopper, however, instead of spending an extra 5 hrs or so with this guy at my expense. It would be more fun to take my wife and kids for a picnic or to Phillip Island or anywhere that I felt like going.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Don't guest he seen it that way.

Ian

Return to “Pay”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests