CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Endosements, Ratings and Certificates.
Heliduck
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CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Heliduck » Wed Oct 9 2019, 16:36

When I did my CPL(H) 23 years ago I was given a shiny new certificate which stated that I was the proud recipient of an "Advanced Certificate in Aviation". The training certifications/naming protocols have been through a lot of changes since then in most industries, so in 2019 when a shiny new CPL(H) is issued is it still an "Advanced Certificate" level qualification?
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Toppy » Wed Oct 9 2019, 22:13

Under the VET fee process through TAFE they are being issued Diplomas of aviation
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Rotorpilot
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Rotorpilot » Fri Oct 11 2019, 03:01

simple answer.....yes.

The CPL (h) went to a cert iv Aviation, If, you completed the criteria for the new syllabus. after 2015 they added more to then make it a Diploma.

so if you want to upgrade the qual you will most likely have to pay for the privilege. :shock:

RPL is a lot of extra paperwork for no benefit to the operator/flight school. :?

if you find somewhere that will let me know :D pop;
"Clear blades" :shock: 8)
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Heliduck » Fri Oct 11 2019, 03:08

Thanks for the info.
As a side note, With the Part 61 introduction I’m surprised a CPL isn’t the equivalent of a law degree these days.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby RotorBez » Fri Oct 11 2019, 07:02

Interesting thread......!

I have a little bit of knowledge in this area as I have the scars from having to do exactly these things from both an administrative perspective and RPL perspective.

So in short - the CASR Pt61 licence is harmonised to a Diploma in Aviation *(AVI50315) should you wish to go through an approved RTO or TAFE aligned Flight School if you look here;https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/AVI50315. There are 29 Core subjects and then 1 elective that are required in order to qualify. Most Flight Schools opt for the Low Level, after-all whats the point of helicopter flying if you cant fly low level? I do know others however who didn't have the LL yet still obtained the Diploma because they undertook HUET.

Now, should you conduct a CPL(H) course at a non RTO / TAFE aligned flight school you will still be trained in the 29 core subjects and probably the LL as well. Why? Well, because thats what the CASR Pt61 CPL(H) requires. So, upon successful completion of your flight test you will be awarded your licence but not the other bit of paperwork.

With regards to the "can I get RPL'd" comment - you can and there are flight schools out there *(look at a Sunshine Coast Operator or a Redcliffe Based RTO as examples) that either can or may be able to do it for you, at a cost!

The question remains "why" though, as I am not sure I know of any employers who "needs" this Cert IV as once was or the Diploma as it is now. After-all I thought it was your licence that provides the employment eligibility.

Just my 2 cents worth.

RB
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby jimiemick » Fri Oct 11 2019, 11:37

Just passed my CPL-H a few months ago.
All I got was a bit of paper saying I’m now a pilot.

But on social media all I get is Ads saying get a diploma in aviation.
What else do these poor kids get after forking out for a diploma!?!?!?
Or am I missing something ?
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hand in pants
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby hand in pants » Sat Oct 12 2019, 22:45

Typically this whole "diploma of bullcrap" has come about because academics have wormed their way into the aviation world.
these classroom dwellers have never taught anyone to fly, never flown themselves, never done anything but stick their nose in where it isn't needed.
Is someone out there going to tell me that because I did my licence before all this part 61 garbage came that I'm not a good enough pilot. And are they going to tell me that in my past that I've produced a substandard pilot because I didn't teach them as per part 61.
the sad thing is that the idiots in Canberra have no civil aviation experience at all. and until we get a pilot in there things won't change. They'll keep buggering up the industry with over complicated rules that few can understand and that don't work or are impossible to put into practice. And all in the name of "safety", another subject they know little or nothing about.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sun Oct 13 2019, 04:30

The only thing an employer will check on in terms of paperwork is a copy of your flight crew licence (FCL) and your logbook. A diploma may look 'fancy' to an airline HR recruiter but that's about it.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Gasket18 » Fri Oct 23 2020, 20:22

hand in pants wrote:Typically this whole "diploma of bullcrap" has come about because academics have wormed their way into the aviation world.
these classroom dwellers have never taught anyone to fly, never flown themselves, never done anything but stick their nose in where it isn't needed.
Is someone out there going to tell me that because I did my licence before all this part 61 garbage came that I'm not a good enough pilot. And are they going to tell me that in my past that I've produced a substandard pilot because I didn't teach them as per part 61.
the sad thing is that the idiots in Canberra have no civil aviation experience at all. and until we get a pilot in there things won't change. They'll keep buggering up the industry with over complicated rules that few can understand and that don't work or are impossible to put into practice. And all in the name of "safety", another subject they know little or nothing about.



It's how it is in every industry now days too. It's mainly ohs rubbish now, but there's always people that need to do something to justify their jobs. I'm doing my theory at mo. I've gone and asked pilots questions when I'm stuck and there has hardly ever been one that can answer the q's they are all like you don't need that once you've passed your exams. So far it also seems that that CASA want you to fail, the way the whole theory system is set up. And like a lot of other industries, they seem to being laying more concentration on that side rather than the actual flying capabilities.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Wannabe60Driver » Sat Oct 24 2020, 07:09

There’s a very simple answer here that seems to have been overlooked here guys: A Diploma, Cert III, Advanced Diploma (instrument or multi-crew cooperation) etc only exists to make the course eligible for student loans or other government funding programs like the high school Cert III guarantee. There is no real difference in the delivery of the program of instruction to the regular CPL route, only how the student pays for it. End of story.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Oct 25 2020, 09:47

Gasket18 wrote:
hand in pants wrote:Typically this whole "diploma of bullcrap" has come about because academics have wormed their way into the aviation world.
these classroom dwellers have never taught anyone to fly, never flown themselves, never done anything but stick their nose in where it isn't needed.
Is someone out there going to tell me that because I did my licence before all this part 61 garbage came that I'm not a good enough pilot. And are they going to tell me that in my past that I've produced a substandard pilot because I didn't teach them as per part 61.
the sad thing is that the idiots in Canberra have no civil aviation experience at all. and until we get a pilot in there things won't change. They'll keep buggering up the industry with over complicated rules that few can understand and that don't work or are impossible to put into practice. And all in the name of "safety", another subject they know little or nothing about.



It's how it is in every industry now days too. It's mainly ohs rubbish now, but there's always people that need to do something to justify their jobs. I'm doing my theory at mo. I've gone and asked pilots questions when I'm stuck and there has hardly ever been one that can answer the q's they are all like you don't need that once you've passed your exams. So far it also seems that that CASA want you to fail, the way the whole theory system is set up. And like a lot of other industries, they seem to being laying more concentration on that side rather than the actual flying capabilities.


I would go as far to say that that is categorically incorrect. There are lots of things you continue to relate back your basic knowledge you learn in your initial theory. If you need a hand with anything, ask away on here, or ask someone more helpful then you have in the past.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby homersimpson » Sun Oct 25 2020, 23:57

Agree with Jabberwocky, I use that stuff every day. Even human performance. You can do theory and decide it’s useless, or you can take it onboard and be a better pilot. CASA might suck at wording questions and how they do testing in general, but the theory you have to learn is sound.
Last week I had to make operational decisions based on weather forecasts, what I could see, and my knowledge of local weather in the area. Where did I learn about TAFs and how weather systems move around?
I do weight and balances for every flight, mostly in my head like we all do because I understand how cog moves around.
A pilot might tell you that he never did an ETP calculation after the performance and planning exam, but he’s lying because he does it every time he goes out flying.
We all need a knowledge base to add onto when we start working.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Icefather » Mon Oct 26 2020, 03:22

Agree with all of the above.

I used to think I’d never use the lame PNR and those calculations..

That was until I had to do a 130nm ferry and land at min fuel for engineering reasons with it not being a blue sky VFR day....

Flying skills will only get you so far but the knowledge you learn can be the difference between being a good pilot or a great one.

IF
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Eric Hunt » Tue Oct 27 2020, 01:35

I did a BSc with major in Physics and Maths, and post-grad study that included aerody and met.

The depth of knowledge has helped me understand what is going on with my aircraft and the surroundings, a lot better than somebody who studied the answers to the listed questions.

Knowledge will never be a hindrance.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Sausagesizzle » Sat Oct 31 2020, 03:40

So with all that being said... could anyone answer what would one have to do to convert his CPL(H) into a diploma of some sort?
This isn’t just a way to spruce up a CV, but dramatically changes ones chance of immigration to other countries.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby havick » Sat Oct 31 2020, 04:52

Sausagesizzle wrote:So with all that being said... could anyone answer what would one have to do to convert his CPL(H) into a diploma of some sort?
This isn’t just a way to spruce up a CV, but dramatically changes ones chance of immigration to other countries.


Interesting spin, I never really considered that but you make an excellent point.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Wannabe60Driver » Sat Oct 31 2020, 07:02

Sausagesizzle wrote:So with all that being said... could anyone answer what would one have to do to convert his CPL(H) into a diploma of some sort?
This isn’t just a way to spruce up a CV, but dramatically changes ones chance of immigration to other countries.


Wannabe60Driver wrote:There’s a very simple answer here that seems to have been overlooked here guys: A Diploma, Cert III, Advanced Diploma (instrument or multi-crew cooperation) etc only exists to make the course eligible for student loans or other government funding programs like the high school Cert III guarantee. There is no real difference in the delivery of the program of instruction to the regular CPL route, only how the student pays for it. End of story.


All you’d need is a school capable of issuing the diploma (FTA and Aeropower spring to mind) and a chat regarding the cost involved to RPL. When it comes to immigration though I’d suggest being realistic. A US E3 visa isn’t hard; forget Canada; and, if you have the hours on mountain and sling you’ll get a Kiwi license. EASA is a different ballgame.
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Sausagesizzle » Tue Nov 3 2020, 05:39

Wannabe60Driver wrote:
Sausagesizzle wrote:So with all that being said... could anyone answer what would one have to do to convert his CPL(H) into a diploma of some sort?
This isn’t just a way to spruce up a CV, but dramatically changes ones chance of immigration to other countries.


Wannabe60Driver wrote:There’s a very simple answer here that seems to have been overlooked here guys: A Diploma, Cert III, Advanced Diploma (instrument or multi-crew cooperation) etc only exists to make the course eligible for student loans or other government funding programs like the high school Cert III guarantee. There is no real difference in the delivery of the program of instruction to the regular CPL route, only how the student pays for it. End of story.


All you’d need is a school capable of issuing the diploma (FTA and Aeropower spring to mind) and a chat regarding the cost involved to RPL. When it comes to immigration though I’d suggest being realistic. A US E3 visa isn’t hard; forget Canada; and, if you have the hours on mountain and sling you’ll get a Kiwi license. EASA is a different ballgame.


So only need to go through a said school? Not actually have had to done you’re entire license their previously?
And don’t write off Canada so quickly there mate, I’ve been in Canada for years and the only thing stopping me from getting Permanent Residency is a points system that thinks very highly of a post secondary education ie. diploma. So this is a game changer
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Re: CPL(H) - Cert 4, Advanced Certificate or Diploma?

Postby Wannabe60Driver » Tue Nov 3 2020, 19:10

So only need to go through a said school? Not actually have had to done you’re entire license their previously?
And don’t write off Canada so quickly there mate, I’ve been in Canada for years and the only thing stopping me from getting Permanent Residency is a points system that thinks very highly of a post secondary education ie. diploma. So this is a game changer[/quote]

Correction: Forget Canada if you have no history there and are trying to get a visa from scratch.

Recognition of Prior Learning is a key part of the VET system in Australia. Given a CPL(H) has no tangible difference to a Diploma of Aviation (Commercial Helicopter Pilot) and all units have already been mapped across as equivalent to the CASA qual, it’ll purely come down to how mercenary the school chooses to be on the cost of issuing the Diploma.

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