Logging Of Flight Time

[Poo Pushing Pilot]

Hi, long time reader, first time writer.
Wondering if anyone had any information on an international standard for logging flight time, in some places everyone seems to log engine running time in there pilots log book, but then others go off the collective. Still use collective time for maintenance logging in either situation. Depending on the type of work you are doing, logging engine time can add up to a significant difference. Therfore when hiring pilots, you would not know if you have a 1000 hour pilot with 200 sitting on the ground etc..
Seems like the sort of thing that should be standard throughout the industry.
Any thoughts??

Thanks PPP

[lordflashheart]

Rotor start to rotor stop for the purposes of going flying (no ground runs).

It is in the legislation but CASA has put it together on their website @ http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?W ... c=PC_90100

[dickdastardly]

You are in command of the aircraft and responsible for its safe operation from the moment the blades start turning to the moment they stop so why wouldnt you log all that time? Im lead to believe fixed wing pilots log chock to chock time so that includes alot of taxiing and sitting around waiting to line up.

[oneliner]

Pretty straight forward in Australia. From the time the rotors are engaged for the purpose of flight.

In NZ, depends on who you talk to in the CAA. Some say the same as above. Some say collective time.
Very confusing when it comes time to be audited.

I'm of the opinion that it should be from the time the rotors are engaged for the purpose of flight. When
you are idling on the ground, you are still PIC. As long as you aren't idling all day long!!

If CAA don't consider you PIC when idling on the ground, it brings up the issue of liability should an incident
occur at this time. One could, in theory, shrug their shoulders and say "I wasn't PIC". The definitions section
can contradict what we are told.

My two and a half cents.

Oneliner.

[black duck]

Well for my two cents worth, common sense would dictate it should be from start up to shut down. Just because your doing a ground run doesn't mean your not operating the acft. you are actually manipulating the controls and there is plenty can go wrong just doing that!
Good point oneliner, guess who is going to be in the s#!t if anything go's wrong I can really see "I wasn't PIC" going down well in court!

[Coriolis]

Industry standard is start-up to shut-down. Ground runs with blades engaged can be logged as PIC time.
Never heard of anyone logging collective time only and for the record, fixed wing drivers log start-up to shut-down as well.

[havick]

Coriolis,

Military log collective time, well army do anyway

[fly in the sky]

You have to log from Rotors turning under power to Rotors stopped turning under power all very well in an R22 because it's pretty well engine time.
But what a pain in the a@#e when you are doing a tail rotor strobe on an R44 or a Jetty and keeping track of all those point ones.

[lordflashheart]

[quote="Coriolis"]Ground runs with blades engaged can be logged as PIC time.quote]

Not true. Unless you get into the air you can't log any of it - hence "for the purpose of flight". There is no room for interpretation.

[Jimmy]

I worked for a company in Australia who wanted us log collective time, I never did though I logged it the way CASA wants, which is "ROTORS ENGAGED FOR THE PURPOSE OF FLIGHT". Not ground runs when you don't intend to fly, ie Track and balance ground runs, checking for leaks, tweaking FCU's etc. Log it only if you intend to fly is my understanding.

[FerrariFlyer]

I think Jimmy nailed it. Whilst many of the rules and regulations are open to some interpretation, the purposes of flight would appear to be pretty straight forward. I had one instructor try and argue that, when you start the machine for a ground run if anything were to go wrong you'd be responsible - so why not log it. One's personal spin on such a subject matter might not be sufficient to argue this in one's favour with CASA. And besides, how many of those 0.1 or 0.2 ground runs are really going to make a helluva of difference to your total time?!?!

To add to the military flight time logging, I think they may be allowed to add 10% of their total time to bring it into line with civil operations which is engine start/rotors turning to rotors stopped/engine stopped to account for the engine starts, take off, landing, shut down etc. Any military guys care to agree/disagree with this?

[Headset]

Here in NZ I have always logged collective time as the CAA have grilled us before come audit time on why our PIC doesn't align with the aircraft tech log. BUT in reading the NZCAA definitions and i quote "Pilot-in-command, in relation to any aircraft, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft:"

So I am now confused ......

[All Around Aus]

Interesting thread,

ive had this discussion with fellow pilots a few times before.

So I am curious... while ground running ie rotors turning but NOT for the purpose of flight, as per CASA regs, unloggable time. Who is liable for a fool walking into the tail rotor etc. at this time. I assume this is the pilots fault as everything always is.

Being called the pilot in command is handing you responsibility which in court can send you down a very black hole if something major were to happen. Logging this time is the payoff for accepting resposibility.

While ground running you are still going to cop all of the consequences but aparently not being in command as you are not allowed to log it?

In saying this I agree people logging hours of groundrunning is not going to represent there 'flying hours' well, but who logs THAT much ground running time and check flights reveal flying not up to logbook stated standards anyway.

...anywho, good discussion slappers.

[Jimmy]

I could be wrong but on reading AIP Definitions and the front of my log book there is no mention of ground run time.


PIC is: The Pilot respnsible for the operation and safety of the aeroplane during FLIGHT time (Log book def)

AIP definition for the PIC is: The pilot designated by the operator, or in the case of GA, the owner, as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of a FLIGHT

Alright I know I need to get out more but it's raining here and I had nothing else to do!

[lordflashheart]

To add to the military flight time logging, I think they may be allowed to add 10% of their total time to bring it into line with civil operations which is engine start/rotors turning to rotors stopped/engine stopped to account for the engine starts, take off, landing, shut down etc. Any military guys care to agree/disagree with this?

I couldn't find any reference about 10% or any adjustment for military (looked everywhere in the legislation), except an old reference to logging time at 1FTS (now BFTS). I think (if my memory serves me) that you could add 0.1 or 0.2 to each flight during this course, which I did. However, when I started flying in the military a wise instructor told me to keep 2 log books. So I had a mil logbook and a civ logbook and logged flight time in accordance with the respective appropriate definitions. Strangely enough, it ended up very close to 10% more after 8 years flying in the military.

[Porno]

Deleted.

[MicN7]

and an unlicensed engineer running a machine up 'untethered' not for the purpose of flight requires a ... rating (and I've never seen one 'tethered') ... as well as some flying schools logging paid instructional time from Master On ( and thus logged by the student) - rather than from skids off as done by others.

So it all counts one way or another.

Interesting that we are able to have a discussion like this considering the lock down that CASA purport (now there's a word..) to have on their regulation of flying activities in Australia.

[MicN7]

Awww - c'mon Porno, what was it...

[Porno]

MicN7, I will say my post was a little harsh. But I will try again.

As it has already been said, you can only log flight time if you are going to pick the skids up. Its in the Regs and has already been stated in a earlier post. I have always logged time as engine on, engine off and only when actually going for a flight.

However, why would you want to log flight time if your not flying? To make the log book thicker? You might as well write up entires that are made up... Having more hours doesn't make you a better pilot.

(all Around Aus Wrote)

So I am curious... while ground running ie rotors turning but NOT for the purpose of flight, as per CASA regs, unloggable time. Who is liable for a fool walking into the tail rotor etc. at this time. I assume this is the pilots fault as everything always is.

Being called the pilot in command is handing you responsibility which in court can send you down a very black hole if something major were to happen. Logging this time is the payoff for accepting resposibility.

While ground running you are still going to cop all of the consequences but aparently not being in command as you are not allowed to log it?

If you think you are only in command of your aircraft when it is running think again. You should be in command of your ship whether it is running or not. So because your not logging the ground run as flight time in your log book, you are going to take less care of others operating around the helicopter?

Logging of flight time has nothing to do with the safety of operating a helicopter. They are dangerous and the pilot "in command or not" should all ways be on alert for a situation like some one "walking into a tailrotor". There should never be a "fool" walking any where near the tailrotor only a poorly briefed fool! Poor airmanship. when ground running make sure there is always a spotter keeping the tail clear... or think of a plan to keep the operation safe.

I could go on and on about this I think you will get the point. This thread is about logging of flight time but All Around Aus, raised an interesting point which frustrates me. You are the captain of the helicopter, you control the safety of the operation no matter what the circumstances. And as captain, you should always be one step ahead.

(Threat and Error Management) Even when on the ground.

Thats enough...Porno out.

[fly in the sky]

I think perhaps the clue is in the wording, ie Flight Time or Pilot in Command Time.
Also I bet if you ask a CASA flight operations inspector if you should enter ground running time in your Flight and Duty times as flight time he would answer in the affirmative.
You would have to be a pedantic SOB to be even bothered entering runup time but I guess someone has signed off a daily inspection for that runup to take place.
I think its great to talk about this now rather than be looking at a Request for Corrective Action come audit time.