Low Level

A place to have your say and ask your questions on anything in the Helicopter learning environment.
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Low Level

Postby Ian Batton » Fri May 17 2013, 00:06

Dear training schools and training pilots, please make sure that you get 5 hours of low level training before you complete you CPL H, and that your school completes the paperwork for you to get that on you pilot licence, under
Operational Approvals and Appointments,
LOW FLYING(H) TRNG COMPLETED

With this you can when the time is right get a check ride with your CP and if you pass that you will be allowed to do limited Low Level work,
Without it you have to go and get it and that’s a little harder than it would have been back when you were learning to fly.

Over 60% of pilots licences i see dont have it.
I think you only need 3 hrs of low level to get a CPL H, and that is 2 hrs short of the approval for this.

Cheers Ian.
Now where's my beer
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Re: Low Level

Postby froginasock » Fri May 17 2013, 00:41

Schools should have this fully completed within the CPL(H). Suprises me that it isn't!
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Re: Low Level

Postby Always Out Of Balance » Sat May 18 2013, 00:00

Great advice for those training and then looking for a first gig. Good to get these tips from CP's. Thanks Ian.
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Re: Low Level

Postby SIR_SMP » Sat May 18 2013, 00:40

great advise

Early on in the piece when I started training one school said I would have to do it a separate endorsement once I had a license

for the green thumb as I always say, talk to many schools and as many people as you can when your doing your homework
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Re: Low Level

Postby occy_007 » Sat May 18 2013, 05:23

:o Yeah it surprises me too, that the schools don't do the full endorsement as part of the CPL(H). Then again the schools are probably trying to squeeze more money out of their students. My school did the endorsement as part of the license. I even had the option of doing the last 20 hours in a R44. So besides the endorsement that included my 3 hrs Solo (PIC) time for when I got that first elusive job. Although only a 'little' dearer initially, saved me money in the long run. So basically I was ready to go for my employer, without too much extra spending on my behalf. :D
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Re: Low Level

Postby Bedouin Prince » Sun May 19 2013, 01:30

There actually isn't any amount of time set out in the CPL course to dedicate to low level training. All there is is a set of competencies written into the Syllabus to, well be competent at. This normally takes about 3 hours or longer. The requirement to have the Low Level training completed is the aforementioned 5 hours which then enables you to go on a do things like mustering endorsements etc.
I'm a pessimist, that way I'm either always being proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Low Level

Postby BennyG » Sun May 19 2013, 02:36

Bedouin Prince wrote:There actually isn't any amount of time set out in the CPL course to dedicate to low level training.


I think that's exactly the point Ian is trying to make. It's not in the syllabus to provide the 5 hours of low level training required to then be able to do low level work including filming and surveys etc. with the chief pilots permission.
But there is spare time in the 105 hour course over the syllabus, so make sure you ask to have this done within the license, to save paying extra later to get the required bit of paper to say you can operate low level!
The 3 hours low level that the syllabus provides for doesn't actually allow you to operate low level.
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Re: Low Level

Postby Nawty » Sun May 19 2013, 03:18

Wow how times change.

My instructor used to fly up to the farm where I was living/working and take me for low level jaunts all over the place through the bush and under the trees.
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Re: Low Level

Postby Bedouin Prince » Sun May 19 2013, 04:02

BennyG wrote:
Bedouin Prince wrote:There actually isn't any amount of time set out in the CPL course to dedicate to low level training.


I think that's exactly the point Ian is trying to make. It's not in the syllabus to provide the 5 hours of low level training required to then be able to do low level work including filming and surveys etc. with the chief pilots permission.
But there is spare time in the 105 hour course over the syllabus, so make sure you ask to have this done within the license, to save paying extra later to get the required bit of paper to say you can operate low level!
The 3 hours low level that the syllabus provides for doesn't actually allow you to operate low level.


I actually wasn't putting forth a for or against, I was simply stating for everyone's' benefit that there is not a minimum requirement to do at least 3 hours. If a person can meet the competencies within 1 hour then that's all the syllabus requires.

My personal opinion is that everyone should complete the 5 hour course and get the low level training completed written on their license.
I'm a pessimist, that way I'm either always being proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Low Level

Postby CYHeli » Sun May 19 2013, 04:11

Under the Part 61 changes, it will not be only mustering and ag, but all airwork, sling for example.
Yep, 5 hour training (it will become an actual endorsement) prior to doing a sling rating.

There will also be a low level currency. If you have done so many hours in the past 6 months as low level, all current. Otherwise an hour with an instructor. Again, if you are not current low level, then you will not be allowed to sling.

Lots of changes coming, make sure that sure that you get familiar with the road show when it hits town... (We hope that one is being written :shock: )
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Re: Low Level

Postby Zebt » Sun May 19 2013, 21:20

Ian Batton wrote:Dear training schools and training pilots, please make sure that you get 5 hours of low level training before you complete you CPL H, and that your school completes the paperwork for you to get that on you pilot licence, under
Operational Approvals and Appointments,
LOW FLYING(H) TRNG COMPLETED

With this you can when the time is right get a check ride with your CP and if you pass that you will be allowed to do limited Low Level work,
Without it you have to go and get it and that’s a little harder than it would have been back when you were learning to fly.

Over 60% of pilots licences i see dont have it.
I think you only need 3 hrs of low level to get a CPL H, and that is 2 hrs short of the approval for this.

Cheers Ian.


Great advice, cheers.
Have already done some low level during my CPL but intend to continue so will make sure I get the extra 2 hours.
I am intending on continuing past the December deadline to obtain the various ratings even though I could probably get finished before with a bit of a push, I know it will cost more and of course take longer but hopefully it will help towards an instructors job down the road now that it's 200 hours instead of 400 (I think!). It will also mean I don't have to cram the last exams in before the end of the year, so no study pressure.. working full time with a busy life, just can't get enough flying in!
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Re: Low Level

Postby bl@ckers » Sun May 19 2013, 23:15

I think you will find under the new regs the instructor rating will be reduced from 400 hours to 250 (not 200).
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Re: Low Level

Postby CYHeli » Sun May 19 2013, 23:29

There is rumour that the transition may run to over a year. So if you start the training prior to Dec then you will have 12 months after Dec to complete it under the current rules. So it shouldn't cost more in the short term.
It is also possible that the transition period may be longer than a year.
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Re: Low Level

Postby hand in pants » Mon May 20 2013, 01:27

CYHeli, with regard to the new requirements for "currency" on your low level endorsement. Every time I take off and land, there is a short period where I am under say, 350 feet. Does that count as "low level"?
As far as this new requirement is concerned, from my point of view, it does. Therefore with the amount of flying I do, I'll always be covered.

And as far as flight reviews go, nothing should have changed other than the addition of a flight review for NVFR. (my opinion only).

I have tried to read the new Part 61, 142 and 142 stuff but it is too hard with all of the lawyer speak and the jumping backward and forward to cover references. And at 511 pages, I'm not printing the bloody thing out.
I'm hoping that CASA will have some kind of education program to tell us exactly what the new changes mean.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: Low Level

Postby Peter Holstein » Mon May 20 2013, 03:45

The next series of Professional Development Programmes (PDP) will specifically target the new rules and the changes the industry are facing. Also the CFI Conference due later this year (conducted in conjunction with Safe Skys in Canberra) will be addressing these changes as well. I recommend those affected get to these events but numbers are often limited so get in and let your intentions be known as soon as the dates are projected.
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Re: Low Level

Postby Zebt » Mon May 20 2013, 07:32

bl@ckers wrote:I think you will find under the new regs the instructor rating will be reduced from 400 hours to 250 (not 200).


Got it, thanks, was being optimistic as usual, still good news. :D
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Re: Low Level

Postby froginasock » Tue May 21 2013, 00:43

Peter Holstein wrote:The next series of Professional Development Programmes (PDP) will specifically target the new rules and the changes the industry are facing. Also the CFI Conference due later this year (conducted in conjunction with Safe Skys in Canberra) will be addressing these changes as well. I recommend those affected get to these events but numbers are often limited so get in and let your intentions be known as soon as the dates are projected.


Much of the nuts and bolts of the new parts will be driven by the Manual of Standards. This is the document that we need to see asap so that operators and schools can get their future training programs developed - based on the standards required in training (and therefore beyond) - this takes considerable time and effort .. therefore, any Idea when the Manual of Standards will be released so that we can get a head start rather than it all be rush rush rush with a few months to implement?
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Re: Low Level

Postby hand in pants » Tue May 21 2013, 22:16

Hey Pete, the PDP and CFI programs don't help those in my situation. CASA needs to educate ALL (in plain, understandable English) of us if they want to make such big changes. These changes affect everybody from the bloke who is thinking about a licence through to the bloke with 20,000 hours. And we need to know how it affects us individually. Because if I go along thinking I can do one thing because I could before and now I actually can't, whose fault will it be?????
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Joined: Jun 2006

Re: Low Level

Postby CYHeli » Wed May 22 2013, 02:22

hand in pants wrote:CYHeli, with regard to the new requirements for "currency" on your low level endorsement. Every time I take off and land, there is a short period where I am under say, 350 feet. Does that count as "low level"?
As far as this new requirement is concerned, from my point of view, it does. Therefore with the amount of flying I do, I'll always be covered.

From the Part 61 def's;
low-level operation means an operation below 500 ft AGL,
other than the following:
(a) climbing from take-off;
(b) descending for the purpose of landing;
(c) an aerial application operation.


I agree with you, it is a very clunky piece of legislation.
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Joined: Sep 2006

Re: Low Level

Postby hand in pants » Wed May 22 2013, 03:20

So an aerial application, which I assume would be spraying of some kind, isn't low level?????????

And all I have to do is spend part of a flight at or below 500 and I'm covered?
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!

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